Pretty cool rendering of a new maro style.

[H3llphyre]

http://www.gminsidenews.com/GMfour.jpg


Sure, its a render, but I kind of like the look. A little retro.

[X]

That's interesting!!

[Feral]

I personally hated the pointy noses on the LT1 firebirds/transams and I hate that thing's pointy nose as well ... and square headlights .. ugh. Nice curves in the back though ... :thumbsup:

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
I personally hated the pointy noses on the LT1 firebirds/transams and I hate that thing's pointy nose as well ... and square headlights .. ugh. Nice curves in the back though ... :thumbsup:

Well, the nose is a heritage thing. Its been in every design for the most part, sometimes more subtle. I agree though, the headlights have to go. maybe some nice round ones, which would lead back to a more retro look. Its a good start though.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Well, the nose is a heritage thing. Its been in every design for the most part, sometimes more subtle. I agree though, the headlights have to go. maybe some nice round ones, which would lead back to a more retro look. Its a good start though.

oh well ... they made the WS6 right so that's what I'm going to be buying when I get around to it. :thumbsup:

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
oh well ... they made the WS6 right so that's what I'm going to be buying when I get around to it. :thumbsup:

considering the price difference between the WS6 (collectors item now) and a normal V6 firebird with the bood and wing is EXTREME. Its not like you will be using the engine anyway.... LOL

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
considering the price difference between the WS6 (collectors item now) and a normal V6 firebird with the bood and wing is EXTREME. Its not like you will be using the engine anyway.... LOL

I will be buying a WS6 :nuts:

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
I will be buying a WS6 :nuts:


Fan boy... LOL. I kinda figured that anyway. Then all you have to do is mess with the drivetrain / engine and not the body.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Fan boy... LOL. I kinda figured that anyway. Then all you have to do is mess with the drivetrain / engine and not the body. Yeah I don't like paint.

[RacerXTT]

Looks like grey primer. They should take some more styling cues from the older ones. It has too many round edges it's needs to be more muscular-looking, it's a muscle car right ? only makes sense.

[H3llphyre]

This isnt a GM design. Its just some enthusiasts view of what it should be.

[WETDRM]

who cares its dead anyway.....and they better do something before lutz has a stroke or something cause if he goes it will never be back.....and thats just fine with me....:headbang2 :flipoff3:

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by GT200MPH
who cares its dead anyway.....and they better do something before lutz has a stroke or something cause if he goes it will never be back.....and thats just fine with me....:headbang2 :flipoff3:
Actually, Lutz hasnt really shown much in the way of concern over the demise of the f-body. He has other things to do, like bring the GTO over. More or less, the GTO is the new F-body. So, the stang better watch out. The tiger is hungry, and i hear he likes horse meat.

[WETDRM]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Actually, Lutz hasnt really shown much in the way of concern over the demise of the f-body. He has other things to do, like bring the GTO over. More or less, the GTO is the new F-body. So, the stang better watch out. The tiger is hungry, and i hear he likes horse meat.

please the GTO aint going to be shit........same motor but heavier than the maro or bird ...please.............and i mentioned lutz cause its the only chance they have of coming back.

[Feral]

Originally posted by GT200MPH
please the GTO aint going to be shit........same motor but heavier than the maro or bird ...please.............and i mentioned lutz cause its the only chance they have of coming back.

The GTO can in now way compare to a Mustang. The GTO is the replacement for what the GTP should have been ... it can't compare to the F-bodies and definitely can't compete with the cobra despite being the same price.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
and definitely can't compete with the cobra despite being the same price.

Pathetically, this is true. Although, the new GTO will be more of a higher class vehicle. MUCH nicer interior then ANY of the f-bodies and certainly the stang. We shall see... I know SLP will get their hands on it, and I am sure GM will listen to people and come out with the Judge again. Put the new 24V base model vette engine in it (400hp) or even the current Z06 engine in it, and it will be a pretty decent fight. Of course, they are going to have to work on that price point a little bit.

Of course, nothing is stopping GM from getting ahold of eaton and strapping a blower to the LS1.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Pathetically, this is true. Although, the new GTO will be more of a higher class vehicle. MUCH nicer interior then ANY of the f-bodies and certainly the stang. We shall see... I know SLP will get their hands on it, and I am sure GM will listen to people and come out with the Judge again. Put the new 24V base model vette engine in it (400hp) or even the current Z06 engine in it, and it will be a pretty decent fight. Of course, they are going to have to work on that price point a little bit.

Of course, nothing is stopping GM from getting ahold of eaton and strapping a blower to the LS1.

Except for the fact that the LS1 is NOT a boost-friendly engine. As it sits with cast crank, cast pistons/rods, and aluminum block ... it's just a timebomb waiting to go when you boost it.

My point isn't that the GTO is slower than the cobra ... this is obvious ... my point is that the GTO is not in the same class. The GTO is more of a sports-sedan ... like an M5 ... just a class lower and cheaper. The Cobra is a muscle/sports car. Different beasts.

The other point is that GM has nothing to compete with the mustang (any trim). The mustang GT runs mid 14s and is $23,000 ... the mustang Mach 1 is $25,000 and runs high 13's and the cobra is $35,000 and runs 12's. GM has no answer to any of that. The Vette is a pure sports car meant more for cornering ... the mustang is a pony car. Again ... different beasts and very different price points ...

[540Malibu]

i like this one better http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0309phr-5camaro05_z.jpg

[540Malibu]

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0309phr-5camaro03_z.jpg

[540Malibu]

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0309phr-5camaro07_z.jpg

[Blackwidow]

NOW THAT IS WHAT A NEW MARO SHOULD LOOK LIKE :worship2:

[Igetlaidalot]

that thing looks fuckin badass, and now everyone with 69 maros can find grilles more easily~:thumbsup:

[Mike S]

That orange one is SFM :worship2: That thing is on my desktop wallpaper

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Except for the fact that the LS1 is NOT a boost-friendly engine. As it sits with cast crank, cast pistons/rods, and aluminum block ... it's just a timebomb waiting to go when you boost it.

My point isn't that the GTO is slower than the cobra ... this is obvious ... my point is that the GTO is not in the same class. The GTO is more of a sports-sedan ... like an M5 ... just a class lower and cheaper. The Cobra is a muscle/sports car. Different beasts.

The other point is that GM has nothing to compete with the mustang (any trim). The mustang GT runs mid 14s and is $23,000 ... the mustang Mach 1 is $25,000 and runs high 13's and the cobra is $35,000 and runs 12's. GM has no answer to any of that. The Vette is a pure sports car meant more for cornering ... the mustang is a pony car. Again ... different beasts and very different price points ...

yes, valid point... Then again, a stock 4.6 isnt friendly to the kind of boost the cobra is pushing either. It wouldnt take much for GM to sleeve, upgrade internals, and throw on a blower. More or less the same equation as the cobra. Shit, once they start building them here, they COULD come out with a stripped down version with the power.... make another "muscle car". Its possible, but I don't see it happening. Who knows. Maybe GM just gave up.

Of course, something else to consider... The Grand Prix GTP, ImpalaSS, and MonteSS all run mid 14's.... LOL. I know it isnt the same as a mustang, but its not like there isnt SOME performance there. Granted FWD.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Except for the fact that the LS1 is NOT a boost-friendly engine. As it sits with cast crank, cast pistons/rods, and aluminum block ... it's just a timebomb waiting to go when you boost it.



6.0L.....next stupid question

[540Malibu]

also there is no such thing as a cast connecting rod.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
6.0L.....next stupid question

6.0L? Vortec? puts down what? 345hp and 380ft-lbs in the tweaked SS version. Yeah, add a blower, I could see it going up into the 400's. Shit, doesnt GM already sell a blower kit for this engine?

[540Malibu]

If they wanted to they could jsut ship over some isreali Lumina SS's relabel them as Malibu SS, and toss the 8.1 in with the HP3 top end and a t56 and call it a day.....

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
6.0L? Vortec? puts down what? 345hp and 380ft-lbs in the tweaked SS version. Yeah, add a blower, I could see it going up into the 400's. Shit, doesnt GM already sell a blower kit for this engine?

ss is rated at 360hp/380, they contributed it mostly to the "performance exhaust". Either way, toss it in a base model 1500 with a t56 and you got a lightning killer.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
ss is rated at 360hp/380, they contributed it mostly to the "performance exhaust". Either way, toss it in a base model 1500 with a t56 and you got a lightning killer.
Or toss it into a GTO with a eaton blower and call it a mongoose (haha, so clever I am)

[bottledbird68]

Bah, who cares about the camaro, I just wanna see a new firebird :eh:

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
yes, valid point... Then again, a stock 4.6 isnt friendly to the kind of boost the cobra is pushing either. It wouldnt take much for GM to sleeve, upgrade internals, and throw on a blower. More or less the same equation as the cobra. Shit, once they start building them here, they COULD come out with a stripped down version with the power.... make another "muscle car". Its possible, but I don't see it happening. Who knows. Maybe GM just gave up.

Of course, something else to consider... The Grand Prix GTP, ImpalaSS, and MonteSS all run mid 14's.... LOL. I know it isnt the same as a mustang, but its not like there isnt SOME performance there. Granted FWD.

The 4.6 in the Cobra is cast iron ... not just sleved with better parts. It's also DOHC with a nice high redline from the factory ... which boosted engines fucking love (turbos like it more than s/c's ... but s/c's can still benefit from it ... ).

And not a single one of those cars competes with the mustang (sadly) ... fuck ford probably sells a 1/4 million V8 mustangs a year ...

My point is that GM is losing out because they are dumb. I mean give me a break ... re-engineering a pushrod? Why?? Why spend the money to do it when for the same money you can engineer a DOHC?? For the sake of keeping a pushrod just to appeal to the mullet crowd? That's just thick headed idiocy. Ask any top-competition engine builder would they use DOHC if they could and you will get a unanimous answer. Fuck you have honda squeezing 200HP out of 2.0L (hell 240 out of 2.0L in the s2000's case) while GM is barely making 400 out of 5.7. My 3.0L's heads flow more stock than an LS1's and their bore is a fuck of a lot bigger ... and upgraded heads for my 3.0L outflow most aftermarket heads for a 5.7 and I that's with my mild stock turbo-cams. I can get some lumpier cams and hit low-mid 300's out of 3.0L heads ...

dumb dumb dumb GM. This is why when I buy my GM product I am going to get rid of their fucking engine and put my own in ... because I can do it better than them.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
ss is rated at 360hp/380, they contributed it mostly to the "performance exhaust". Either way, toss it in a base model 1500 with a t56 and you got a lightning killer.

Really? Aren't the lightnings now making like 420/475???

[Feral]

Originally posted by bottledbird68
Bah, who cares about the camaro, I just wanna see a new firebird :eh:
Me too ... pontiac styling 0wnz me :thumbsup:

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
6.0L? Vortec? puts down what? 345hp and 380ft-lbs in the tweaked SS version. Yeah, add a blower, I could see it going up into the 400's. Shit, doesnt GM already sell a blower kit for this engine?

Maybe they do ... but you don't see them getting the sack to sell it off the lot ... meanwhile ford is selling boosted vehicles left and right and now so is dodge. I can't wait for the next round of turbo cars ... because this time they will be large displacement, 500+hp monsters ... mmm.

[timGT]

staying away from the discussion between feral jay n spence, i'd drive that orange camaro :worship2:

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Or toss it into a GTO with a eaton blower and call it a mongoose (haha, so clever I am)

yes you are so clever you used my idea for a liscence plate that i told everyone 8 months ago....

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

People love the ls1 cause it reliable HP

ls1's don't break, their easy to work on, they have a huge after market


vr4's are cool, but they def don't keep things simple

I looked under the hood of a vr4 and all i could do was :eh:

WHile logically DOHC would seem like the right idea it didn't help the mustang, the ls1 is still leagues better then the 4.6.

I'm not bashing the 3.0 6 its just a different beast and far different technology. SOme people like things with lots of gagdets and others like something where they can pop the hood and actually work on it without bangin their head on the wall.

Zach

[Jcb890]

those r nice, ive seen them b4, quite badass.

[Feral]

Originally posted by ThaSac (MicZic)
People love the ls1 cause it reliable HP

ls1's don't break, their easy to work on, they have a huge after market


vr4's are cool, but they def don't keep things simple

I looked under the hood of a vr4 and all i could do was :eh:

WHile logically DOHC would seem like the right idea it didn't help the mustang, the ls1 is still leagues better then the 4.6.

I'm not bashing the 3.0 6 its just a different beast and far different technology. SOme people like things with lots of gagdets and others like something where they can pop the hood and actually work on it without bangin their head on the wall.

Zach

Well I certainly wasn't saying the VR4's engine is superior to the LS1 ... just because I drive one doesn't mean I'm eternally biased towards it (that said ... the 6g72 in the VR4 is FUCKING STOUT ... easily handling 750 crank horsepower stock).

My point is the LS1 is not suited to high horsepower ... it just has some design flaws. If you are looking for high horsepower from a small block chevy you will do better going with a crate motor that is designed from the ground up to handle 1000+ horsepower. The LS1 is ok up to 500 FWHP and can even take 600-700 for a short while ... but beyond that it is just the wrong engine for the job. Hell an LT1 is better than an LS1 for high horsepower applications because at least it's a cast iron block. Aluminum + high HP = warped block = boom. That simple.

The block in the cobra IS cast iron ... ford tried to use an aluminum block but it kept warping. ON forced induction cars the combustion chamber gets too hot for aluminum and easily warps it. This is a fact. Why do you think the cobra, VR4, Skyline, supra, and DSM all have cast iron blocks and can all take a fuckton of HP?

As for DOHC vs pushrod ... well lets save that for the tech section. :smokin:

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
The 4.6 in the Cobra is cast iron ... not just sleved with better parts. It's also DOHC with a nice high redline from the factory ... which boosted engines fucking love (turbos like it more than s/c's ... but s/c's can still benefit from it ... ).

And not a single one of those cars competes with the mustang (sadly) ... fuck ford probably sells a 1/4 million V8 mustangs a year ...

My point is that GM is losing out because they are dumb. I mean give me a break ... re-engineering a pushrod? Why?? Why spend the money to do it when for the same money you can engineer a DOHC?? For the sake of keeping a pushrod just to appeal to the mullet crowd? That's just thick headed idiocy. Ask any top-competition engine builder would they use DOHC if they could and you will get a unanimous answer. Fuck you have honda squeezing 200HP out of 2.0L (hell 240 out of 2.0L in the s2000's case) while GM is barely making 400 out of 5.7. My 3.0L's heads flow more stock than an LS1's and their bore is a fuck of a lot bigger ... and upgraded heads for my 3.0L outflow most aftermarket heads for a 5.7 and I that's with my mild stock turbo-cams. I can get some lumpier cams and hit low-mid 300's out of 3.0L heads ...

dumb dumb dumb GM. This is why when I buy my GM product I am going to get rid of their fucking engine and put my own in ... because I can do it better than them.

you comment about the heads is DEAD wrong, the heads on my 5.7 in either of my vehicles out flows them N/A. Cylinder head flow has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with cam size, the SAE standard for measuring cylinder heads is on a flow bench witch does nto utilize, never has never will, any type of cam setup.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Really? Aren't the lightnings now making like 420/475???

gm 1500 weighs 500lbs less, and through the t56 will have aprx 20% more power to the wheels.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Well I certainly wasn't saying the VR4's engine is superior to the LS1 ... just because I drive one doesn't mean I'm eternally biased towards it (that said ... the 6g72 in the VR4 is FUCKING STOUT ... easily handling 750 crank horsepower stock).

My point is the LS1 is not suited to high horsepower ... it just has some design flaws. If you are looking for high horsepower from a small block chevy you will do better going with a crate motor that is designed from the ground up to handle 1000+ horsepower. The LS1 is ok up to 500 FWHP and can even take 600-700 for a short while ... but beyond that it is just the wrong engine for the job. Hell an LT1 is better than an LS1 for high horsepower applications because at least it's a cast iron block. Aluminum + high HP = warped block = boom. That simple.

The block in the cobra IS cast iron ... ford tried to use an aluminum block but it kept warping. ON forced induction cars the combustion chamber gets too hot for aluminum and easily warps it. This is a fact. Why do you think the cobra, VR4, Skyline, supra, and DSM all have cast iron blocks and can all take a fuckton of HP?

As for DOHC vs pushrod ... well lets save that for the tech section. :smokin:

so this is why all very high HP motors use an aluminum block with steel liners. as far as strength is concerned you cannot compare your 3.0 v6 to any v8. 8's have two more cylinder imposing 2 more side loads on the crank shaft. The Gen. III LS6 puts down 35hp more than the cobra stock and is N/A it only has one cam. anything more than that is unnecessary reciprocating weight. The reason an aluminum block in a ford wouldnt work is becasue of poor block design, and poor head design. GM succesfully did an aluminum block and head package that was very succesful and made 200 more horse. and this was with 35 year old metalurgy. as far as aluminum not ebing able to hold to to combustion temps....umm hello? the psitons are made out of aluminum, and get MUCH MUCH MUCH hotter than any part of the block that would touch the liners.....Skylines? supras and DSM's also have an inline design with poses minimal cross sectional loading on the block, the onyl part of those blocks that needs strenght is the main cap area.

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

Feral, I agree, however I was talking on a stock vs. stock basis.

Its hard to beat an all stock ls1 from an all around engine

aluminum=light
300+ hp= tasty
28 mph on the highway= makes the goldsteins happy (or brady's) :smokin:
and all in a nice, proven package which doesn't break until pushed to far.

Zach

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
you comment about the heads is DEAD wrong, the heads on my 5.7 in either of my vehicles out flows them N/A. Cylinder head flow has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with cam size, the SAE standard for measuring cylinder heads is on a flow bench witch does nto utilize, never has never will, any type of cam setup.

Dead wrong? I don't think so ... but feel free to correct me on the following.

A flowbench just measures flow (CFMs) at a specific pressure during certain levels of valve lift? Right? And your cam(s) determine your lift? So ... by knowing what cam you have and how much your heads flow at the lift provided by those cams ... you get something of an idea of how much your heads flow (maximum) with the given lift that your cams provide ... right? Also knowing the flow characteristics of your head, the lift of your cams ... and their duration ... you can mathematically determine how much air you get every power stroke given the pressure of the flowbench ...

What you don't get is overall performance ... flow isn't even close to everything ... so don't think I'm trying to say "I flow more than you do so I get more performance ..." because that's bullshit and we all know it. I was just making the rhetorical comment that my tiny 3.0L heads outflow a great deal of v8 heads with significantly more bore size due primarily to my DOHC.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
gm 1500 weighs 500lbs less, and through the t56 will have aprx 20% more power to the wheels.

Bullshit. I might believe 20 more horsepower ... but not 20% more drivetrain loss. A t56 still makes about 12% drivetrain loss ... even my AWD is only about 25% in stock configuration and about 3% of that is due to the heavy stock wheels ... I won't believe for a second the lightning's tranny makes 32% drivetrain loss ... prove it. Maybe 18-20% ... tops.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
8's have two more cylinder imposing 2 more side loads on the crank shaft. The Gen. III LS6 puts down 35hp more than the cobra stock Apples to apples then ... there are now cobras driving around with 850-900 FWHP ... several of them in fact ... without changing a single thing inside the engine. What bone stock aluminum LS6 can say that and for how long?

Oh it's quite obvious by now the Cobras are underrated ... stock they put 375 to the wheels whereas the LS6 is only putting about 385.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Bullshit. I might believe 20 more horsepower ... but not 20% more drivetrain loss. A t56 still makes about 12% drivetrain loss ... even my AWD is only about 25% in stock configuration and about 3% of that is due to the heavy stock wheels ... I won't believe for a second the lightning's tranny makes 32% drivetrain loss ... prove it. Maybe 18-20% ... tops. i was refering to gms 4l60E, takes 30% of power to drive it, 4l80E's take about 40% in stock form, the t56 takes less than 10% to drive.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Apples to apples then ... there are now cobras driving around with 850-900 FWHP ... several of them in fact ... without changing a single thing inside the engine. What bone stock aluminum LS6 can say that and for how long?

Oh it's quite obvious by now the Cobras are underrated ... stock they put 375 to the wheels whereas the LS6 is only putting about 385.

all depends what year ls6, soem 03's put over 400 to the ground.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Apples to apples then ... there are now cobras driving around with 850-900 FWHP ... several of them in fact ... without changing a single thing inside the engine. What bone stock aluminum LS6 can say that and for how long?

Oh it's quite obvious by now the Cobras are underrated ... stock they put 375 to the wheels whereas the LS6 is only putting about 385.

apples to apples, chevy big blocks driving around with over 1000hp on stock components. as far as teh cobra motors, they havent been out long enough to determine any reliability concerns.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
all depends what year ls6, soem 03's put over 400 to the ground.

also i'd prefere if you didnt generalize the Gen III small blocks with the LS6 rpo code, LS6 is just a different intake and a few other things. The 6.0 Gen III truck motors havent had there limits tested yet, but they are assembled with better internals than the aluminum 346's.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Dead wrong? I don't think so ... but feel free to correct me on the following.

A flowbench just measures flow (CFMs) at a specific pressure during certain levels of valve lift? Right? And your cam(s) determine your lift? So ... by knowing what cam you have and how much your heads flow at the lift provided by those cams ... you get something of an idea of how much your heads flow (maximum) with the given lift that your cams provide ... right? Also knowing the flow characteristics of your head, the lift of your cams ... and their duration ... you can mathematically determine how much air you get every power stroke given the pressure of the flowbench ...

What you don't get is overall performance ... flow isn't even close to everything ... so don't think I'm trying to say "I flow more than you do so I get more performance ..." because that's bullshit and we all know it. I was just making the rhetorical comment that my tiny 3.0L heads outflow a great deal of v8 heads with significantly more bore size due primarily to my DOHC.

ill agree that if you have this and if you have that in some instances you are correct, but that is jsut circumstancial. If you had said stock for stock, you are mostly correct, but you didnt.

as for flow, flow is everthing, the more air that can pass through a motor the more power it makes, but in order to make that power you need velocity adn thats where port design comes into play and cam specs and other wise.

[Jcb890]

...back 2 the camaro concepts....the ones spence posted r nice.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Dead wrong? I don't think so ... but feel free to correct me on the following.

A flowbench just measures flow (CFMs) at a specific pressure during certain levels of valve lift? Right? And your cam(s) determine your lift? So ... by knowing what cam you have and how much your heads flow at the lift provided by those cams ... you get something of an idea of how much your heads flow (maximum) with the given lift that your cams provide ... right? Also knowing the flow characteristics of your head, the lift of your cams ... and their duration ... you can mathematically determine how much air you get every power stroke given the pressure of the flowbench ...

What you don't get is overall performance ... flow isn't even close to everything ... so don't think I'm trying to say "I flow more than you do so I get more performance ..." because that's bullshit and we all know it. I was just making the rhetorical comment that my tiny 3.0L heads outflow a great deal of v8 heads with significantly more bore size due primarily to my DOHC.

Actually, they just do the head flow numbers at different lifts. It can even go beyond the "lift" of your specific cam. Its just to show what the heads will flow at a certain lift, not for a specific cam, which really doesnt matter.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Well I certainly wasn't saying the VR4's engine is superior to the LS1 ... just because I drive one doesn't mean I'm eternally biased towards it (that said ... the 6g72 in the VR4 is FUCKING STOUT ... easily handling 750 crank horsepower stock).

My point is the LS1 is not suited to high horsepower ... it just has some design flaws. If you are looking for high horsepower from a small block chevy you will do better going with a crate motor that is designed from the ground up to handle 1000+ horsepower. The LS1 is ok up to 500 FWHP and can even take 600-700 for a short while ... but beyond that it is just the wrong engine for the job. Hell an LT1 is better than an LS1 for high horsepower applications because at least it's a cast iron block. Aluminum + high HP = warped block = boom. That simple.

The block in the cobra IS cast iron ... ford tried to use an aluminum block but it kept warping. ON forced induction cars the combustion chamber gets too hot for aluminum and easily warps it. This is a fact. Why do you think the cobra, VR4, Skyline, supra, and DSM all have cast iron blocks and can all take a fuckton of HP?

As for DOHC vs pushrod ... well lets save that for the tech section. :smokin:

Actually, the new Ford GT is an aluminum 5.4 block that is blown. Also 32V. It's all about the design of the block. Its just easier to make a cast iron blown engine.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
also i'd prefere if you didnt generalize the Gen III small blocks with the LS6 rpo code, LS6 is just a different intake and a few other things. The 6.0 Gen III truck motors havent had there limits tested yet, but they are assembled with better internals than the aluminum 346's.

Agreed. Gen3 isnt only the LS6... I would be curious to see what the truck engines were capable of. Tis why I said a 6.0L in the GTO with boost would be interesting.

[Hullet]

Done by the same kid who did the orange Maro'

http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0312phr_fifthgen_01_z.jpg

http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0312phr_fifthgen_02_z.jpg

Mark

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

That kids got a nice program there. Def has some I.D. expirience.

Zach

[Jcb890]

i like this kids ideas.

[Mike S]

.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Actually, they just do the head flow numbers at different lifts. It can even go beyond the "lift" of your specific cam. Its just to show what the heads will flow at a certain lift, not for a specific cam, which really doesnt matter.

What's this in reference to? You didn't say anything that Spencer or I didn't already say ... postwhore. :bash:

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Actually, the new Ford GT is an aluminum 5.4 block that is blown. Also 32V. It's all about the design of the block. Its just easier to make a cast iron blown engine. There's no good reason not to make a blown engine cast iron. The weight difference isn't too crazy and with modern cooling techniques you don't need to worry about temperatures ... so if you were planning on making an engine boostable why not just make it iron?

[Feral]

Originally posted by 02CamaroZ28
Done by the same kid who did the orange Maro'

http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0312phr_fifthgen_01_z.jpg

http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0312phr_fifthgen_02_z.jpg

Mark

No way Chevy would ever release a car that looks that slick... its against their mullet/redneck heritage. Maybe a pontiac ...

[Jcb890]

...riiight

[Igetlaidalot]

YEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

MAKE IT A PONTIAC


seriously tho that car is PERFECT for the next gen f body!

[Mike S]

That orange one is so fucking sweet....:hitit2:

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

Actually pontiac styling is just as ugly as chevy. See, chevy just makes theres blatently ugly. Pontiac makes a design pleasing then tacks so much cladding and shit onto the design that it turns into an over styled piece of trash.


Zach

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by ThaSac (MicZic)
Actually pontiac styling is just as ugly as chevy. See, chevy just makes theres blatently ugly. Pontiac makes a design pleasing then tacks so much cladding and shit onto the design that it turns into an over styled piece of trash.


Zach

http://www.fourthcircledesigns.com/customer/jack.jpg

I barely call this an over-styled peice of trash. Considering for $32K it runs mid 13's and looks bad-ass. Exactly what do you consider a stylish and not trashy? Miatas?

[Mike S]

WS6------:worship2: :smokin:

[Feral]

Originally posted by PoppaWheelie
WS6------:worship2: :smokin:

Me too ...

WS6 ownz Me
:worship2: :worship2:

[Igetlaidalot]

dude pontiacs are some of the best looking cars ever put out

[Jcb890]

why r we gonna argue ugly cars i mean seriously...?

its all bout opinion and every1 has their own. i personally think that green concept is very nice along w/ all the others, theres some things i wud change tho.

as 4 comments bout chevy only creating ugly cars, ill disagree with that fully because there have been some absolutely awesome cars from chevy, if u wanna argue ugly cars its worthless.

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

I wasn't refering to the firebird, and the fact that it runs 13's doesn't mean its good looking.

I'm refering to the fact pontiac feels the need to put side cladding on all their cars. Thankfully they have stopped the trend. Their latest styling inticates a turn for the better.

And no, I don't think the miata is the only thing with style.

I'm just saying pontiac in general the last couple years has had some purely styled vehicles

aztek=no need to explain
grand am= cheap piece of junk with even cheaper styling
sunfire = :eh:


Now the latest in bad styling has to be BMW, :wtf1:

Seems like the designers think that putting 50 different angles into a design make it interesting....no, just ugly.

Now the e type, that was design at it best.

The best design are the ones that keep things simple, for instance the new g35. It flows well. Keeps a new look while retaining organic lines.

Good New Designs:
G35
s2000
Any Audi
Aston Martin Vantage
The new Viper (they really cleaned it up)
Panoz

Bad new designs:
Echo
New civic (can u say egg?)
z4
350z (over done, g35 much better and far cleaner)
new 7 series (specifically the back end, just doesn't work)
That new honda sport ute thing, piece of crap
Any saturn
New eclipse (not only do they take the turbo and make it fwd only but they make it the ugliest import out there)
Pontiac cavalier
Any nissan with the big grey bar thru the middle of the grill
:eh:

Zach :smokin:

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

I wasn't refering to the firebird, and the fact that it runs 13's doesn't mean its good looking.

I'm refering to the fact pontiac feels the need to put side cladding on all their cars. Thankfully they have stopped the trend. Their latest styling inticates a turn for the better.

And no, I don't think the miata is the only thing with style.

I'm just saying pontiac in general the last couple years has had some purely styled vehicles

aztek=no need to explain
grand am= cheap piece of junk with even cheaper styling
sunfire = :eh:


Now the latest in bad styling has to be BMW, :wtf1:

Seems like the designers think that putting 50 different angles into a design make it interesting....no, just ugly.

Now the e type, that was design at it best.

The best design are the ones that keep things simple, for instance the new g35. It flows well. Keeps a new look while retaining organic lines.

Good New Designs:
G35
s2000
Any Audi
Aston Martin Vantage
The new Viper (they really cleaned it up)
Panoz

Bad new designs:
Echo
New civic (can u say egg?)
z4
350z (over done, g35 much better and far cleaner)
new 7 series (specifically the back end, just doesn't work)
That new honda sport ute thing, piece of crap
Any saturn
New eclipse (not only do they take the turbo and make it fwd only but they make it the ugliest import out there)
Pontiac cavalier
Any nissan with the big grey bar thru the middle of the grill
:eh:

Zach :smokin:

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

I wasn't refering to the firebird, and the fact that it runs 13's doesn't mean its good looking.

I'm refering to the fact pontiac feels the need to put side cladding on all their cars. Thankfully they have stopped the trend. Their latest styling inticates a turn for the better.

And no, I don't think the miata is the only thing with style.

I'm just saying pontiac in general the last couple years has had some purely styled vehicles

aztek=no need to explain
grand am= cheap piece of junk with even cheaper styling
sunfire = :eh:


Now the latest in bad styling has to be BMW, :wtf1:

Seems like the designers think that putting 50 different angles into a design make it interesting....no, just ugly.

Now the e type, that was design at it best.

The best design are the ones that keep things simple, for instance the new g35. It flows well. Keeps a new look while retaining organic lines.

Good New Designs:
G35
s2000
Any Audi
Aston Martin Vantage
The new Viper (they really cleaned it up)
Panoz

Bad new designs:
Echo
New civic (can u say egg?)
z4
350z (over done, g35 much better and far cleaner)
new 7 series (specifically the back end, just doesn't work)
That new honda sport ute thing, piece of crap
Any saturn
New eclipse (not only do they take the turbo and make it fwd only but they make it the ugliest import out there)
Pontiac cavalier
Any nissan with the big grey bar thru the middle of the grill
:eh:

Zach :smokin:

[Igetlaidalot]

the cladding isnt overt in classic pontiac, in 67-68 it was just gills, which the marros had too, it was a better hood a chrome nose and a different spoiler.

adding other elements to set a car apart isnt bad, it just has to be done well to avoid tackiness, which i think pontiac has avoided greatly.

a lot of shit like that is functional too, like to cool brakes and stuff.

i dont consider any car i dont like as part of a manufacturors production. ie sunfire cavalier and such.

being a "chevy guy" doesnt mean you like the cavies. so if theyre ugly i dont really care because theyre designed to appeal to a different audience


but i think the new beamers look AWESOME.


i saw a movie with a 68 eldorado, and man has caddy lost its image.

[Mike S]

I think the 5 and 7 series bimmer's are sweet..The new M5 comming out is one of the best IMO...Like pat said we all have different taste..Most of us like performace cars..That being said things like the caviler and sunfire mean nothing to someone like me..But things like the grandam thats a chicks car...

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by ThaSac (MicZic)
And no, I don't think the miata is the only thing with style.

I'm just saying pontiac in general the last couple years has had some purely styled vehicles


Sorry dude, I don't see any really decent style with the miata. Z3, yes, miata, no. With a nice little body kit, they don't look too bad, but a tad too plain jane.

I do agree with pontiacs most recent design decisions... The aztek is junk, I am glad to see some of the plastic cladding go. The WS6 is the only extra cladding car I have liked from recent pontiac.


Now the latest in bad styling has to be BMW, :wtf1:

Seems like the designers think that putting 50 different angles into a design make it interesting....no, just ugly.


Agreed. The new design seems to work for the 7 series, but not for the 5. I am sure it will grow on me though. I do however like the old design for the 7 MUCH better. Eh, they will figure it out eventually.

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

I'm not saying the miatas is a good design, its basically just a take off the 60's Elan. Its meant to be about simplicity. The whole design of the miata isn't to grab attention and say look at me. It's just meant to be a platform for a great sports car. If you see a miata thats lowered with some slightly bigger rims with just a lip with just a small front lip you'll see the design is one thats very clean. Now, if one moulds in the crease that runs along the car it would be a very clean design. Maybe boring, but not ugly. Another point to be made is that the miata dates to 89. Considering how old the design is, its quite classy for the time period where everything else was just a rectangle or box.

As for the new bmw's, if you think they look better then the previous generation you must be driving an edsel because the designs are failures compared to the previous 5 and 7 series. BMW tried to add to many angles, it just looks sloppy. The rear trunk isn't flush, and the tail lights don't line up with the lighting poece on the trunk lid. It just doesn't work. As for the z4, the z3 said class and had a nice retro touch while retaining its own identity. The z4 looks like its widdle out of wood. Theres way to many hard creases all over the place. It makes for just a confusing ugly design. I gaurentee in 10 years it will look more out dated then a testerosa.....which is very out dated from a design standpoint.

Zach