Why the 3/S isn't in the 9s yet

[GreenMachine]

Speaking of 9 sec imports, I haven’t followed Stealth/3000GT community lately. There always seems to be a 9 sec car in the making, but is anybody currently (ever?) running (ran) 9’s? How about 10 sec cars?

Is there a www.dsmtimes.org equivalent?

I remember when Jack T’s 3000GT was the first Mitsu in the 10’s, but I do not recall seeing many others.

Leon
RR

[Shawn96VR-4]

Originally posted by GreenMachine
Speaking of 9 sec imports, I haven’t followed Stealth/3000GT community lately. There always seems to be a 9 sec car in the making, but is anybody currently (ever?) running (ran) 9’s? How about 10 sec cars?

Is there a www.dsmtimes.org equivalent?

I remember when Jack T’s 3000GT was the first Mitsu in the 10’s, but I do not recall seeing many others.

Leon
RR

There's always talk but it doesn't seem like anyone is doing it. The current record is in the upper 10s. People are just starting to use some of the bigger turbos (TD05 instead of TD04) but the untested waters haven't proven much yet. No one wants to pay $$ for the big turbos I guess. :(


www.3si.org or www.us3s.com/freeforum

[GreenMachine]

I do not understand it… These cars have such potential! I remember seeing photos of some real monsters in the works and then, there was one pretty serious looking 3000GT (Altered Atmosphere?) at DSM Shootout. So what gives?

Leon
RR

[Feral]

Originally posted by GreenMachine
I do not understand it… These cars have such potential! I remember seeing photos of some real monsters in the works and then, there was one pretty serious looking 3000GT (Altered Atmosphere?) at DSM Shootout. So what gives?

Leon
RR

It comes down to one thing ... people refuse to gut a VR4 and with only 3.0 liters and 3800lbs it is just nigh-impossible to make good times.

Jack T's current car is now making 750AWHP but he's having issues getting it to the ground now. He hasn't had a successful run as his tranny wont let him get into 3rd.

Its super-easy to make 450AWHP ... but that's at best good for mid 11's. Making the next jump to around 600AWHP gets expensive fast and the platform is simply too expensive to start with for there to be a lot of people with that kind of capital to invest in it. (of course I say that and then you look at the pricetag on your average 9 second supra ... guess that car just better appeals to people with money).

[Feral]

For the record the engine is a beast. 700-800 on stock internals.

[GreenMachine]

>For the record the engine is a beast. 700-800 on stock internals.

I guess that makes sense, if 4G63 can make 550whp on stock bottom end, there is no reason why its 50% larger cousin shouldn’t be able to make 50% more power. But since 3000GT is “only” 22% heavier (3800lbs vs 3100lbs stock weights), it should have a greater performance potential.

Yet we haven’t seen this since Jack’s early days…

Leon
RR

[Feral]

Originally posted by GreenMachine
>For the record the engine is a beast. 700-800 on stock internals.

I guess that makes sense, if 4G63 can make 550whp on stock bottom end, there is no reason why its 50% larger cousin shouldn’t be able to make 50% more power. But since 3000GT is “only” 22% heavier (3800lbs vs 3100lbs stock weights), it should have a greater performance potential.

Yet we haven’t seen this since Jack’s early days…

Leon
RR

Yeap ... like I said its an expensive platform.

To run 9's as cheap as possible it will still cost you an assload

$10k - running '93 or newer car
$.75k - Repair the synchros
$0 - gut the car totally (-400lbs)
$2.5k - pair of big 16G's
$.5k - N20
$2.5k - Fuel system
$.5k - Clutch
$1k - guages/tuning equipment
$.5K - 3" exhaust
$.5K - Random intake stuff.
$.25k - Cage
$1k - DR's

That's just shy of $20k going the super-cheap route not paying a dime for labor and having everything go right. Even then you will have to be creative because you will have only 600AWHP in a 3400lb car ... that might not get you 9's. Unfortunately the next step up gets really expensive as you more or less have to go stand alone fuel system and huge induction system which will require an FMIC and other random stuff. Not to mention heads to take advantage of it.

Oh and no one offers cams for these cars and they have 33 degrees of overlap ...

[GreenMachine]

>$2.5k - pair of big 16G's

What is up with that? 16G’s are now selling for ~$500 each.

BTW, stay away from “Big 16G’s”, we have long suspected that they weren’t any better than the “small” counterparts. And now, with introduction of the EVO3 16G, they do not make any sense what so ever!

Leon
RR

[Shawn96VR-4]

Originally posted by GreenMachine
>$2.5k - pair of big 16G's

What is up with that? 16G’s are now selling for ~$500 each.

BTW, stay away from “Big 16G’s”, we have long suspected that they weren’t any better than the “small” counterparts. And now, with introduction of the EVO3 16G, they do not make any sense what so ever!

Leon
RR

3/S stock turbocharger housing = TD04. Smaller but very fast turbos make that car a hell of a street car. However, 10 and 9 seconds will probably require the HIGH HIGH end of the TD04 and, if not, TD05 turbos such as the 16G.

The cost of the 16Gs and new headers or adapter plates to make the turbos bolt up = $$$

[Feral]

Originally posted by GreenMachine
>$2.5k - pair of big 16G's

What is up with that? 16G’s are now selling for ~$500 each.

BTW, stay away from “Big 16G’s”, we have long suspected that they weren’t any better than the “small” counterparts. And now, with introduction of the EVO3 16G, they do not make any sense what so ever!

Leon
RR

Yeah I hear that. TD05s require adapter plates.

Regardless to make a 9 second car right you will need a minimum of an extra $10k and more like $20k. I was just outlining the cheap one-shot at 9's car you could make. For $30-$40k its no wonder no one has made on that fast yet.

[540Malibu]

not to be bashing the 3si's, but there are plenty of 4k lb plus domestics in the nines, so weigh really isnt an issue, i think the thing that is holding them back the most is the parasitic drag at the top end from the AWD, that was the same thing that was holding back the syclone's.

[GreenMachine]

>i think the thing that is holding them back the most is the
>parasitic drag at the top end from the AWD, that was the
>same thing that was holding back the syclone's.

I can assure you that Mitsu’s AWD system is not all that restrictive. There have been several people who have tested their DSMs in AWD and FWD. On a 500whp car, difference was only around 10-15hp. That is isn’t enough to influence ¼ mile ETs.

Leon
RR

[igotasweetride]

Originally posted by GreenMachine
>i think the thing that is holding them back the most is the
>parasitic drag at the top end from the AWD, that was the
>same thing that was holding back the syclone's.

I can assure you that Mitsu’s AWD system is not all that restrictive. There have been several people who have tested their DSMs in AWD and FWD. On a 500whp car, difference was only around 10-15hp. That is isn’t enough to influence ¼ mile ETs.

Leon
RR

so whats the hold up? tranny breakage? people too worried about breakin stuff and not using the car to its full potential?

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by GreenMachine
>i think the thing that is holding them back the most is the
>parasitic drag at the top end from the AWD, that was the
>same thing that was holding back the syclone's.

I can assure you that Mitsu’s AWD system is not all that restrictive. There have been several people who have tested their DSMs in AWD and FWD. On a 500whp car, difference was only around 10-15hp. That is isn’t enough to influence ¼ mile ETs.

Leon
RR

that tells me the loss is occuring before the rear driveline, im assuming your disconnecting the rear drive shaft to do that in fwd.....the vast majority of power consumption would be in the transfer case/coupling or whatever you want to call it.

and all fwd systems have awful paraistic losses, just a matter of design

[GreenMachine]

>that tells me the loss is occuring before the rear driveline, im assuming your >disconnecting the rear drive shaft to do that in fwd.....

Nope, we disconnect it at the transfer case output (ether take it off or use a JDM transfer case which can turn off RWD). Believe me, we do not spin many more parts than our true FWD counterparts.

Leon
RR

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by GreenMachine
>that tells me the loss is occuring before the rear driveline, im assuming your >disconnecting the rear drive shaft to do that in fwd.....

Nope, we disconnect it at the transfer case output (ether take it off or use a JDM transfer case which can turn off RWD). Believe me, we do not spin many more parts than our true FWD counterparts.

Leon
RR

if your disconnecting the output, then your still turning the tranfer case, and thats what im talking about.

youd have to disconnect the input shaft to do otherwise

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
not to be bashing the 3si's, but there are plenty of 4k lb plus domestics in the nines, so weigh really isnt an issue, i think the thing that is holding them back the most is the parasitic drag at the top end from the AWD, that was the same thing that was holding back the syclone's.

well, it probably comes from the fact that people are lazy. The 3S is easy to put into the 12's, a little more work, but not rocket science to put into the 11's, but once you get to the 10's, it requires actually thinking about what you are doing. There are no "kits" available to put a car into the 10's... Therefor, no one tries. The cramped engine compartment makes it difficult to use larger turbos, and the lack of cheap manifolds for TD05 turbos also doesn't help. It SHOULD be doable, but I think people don't do it because they just don't care.

Also, its a lot easier to put a 4Klbs domestic into the 9's, when engine compartment space isn't a concern and building a motor costs 1/8 the price of what it would take to build a 3S motor.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
not to be bashing the 3si's, but there are plenty of 4k lb plus domestics in the nines, so weigh really isnt an issue, i think the thing that is holding them back the most is the parasitic drag at the top end from the AWD, that was the same thing that was holding back the syclone's.

Yeah but spencer those cars have about 2.5 times the displacement and are RWD.

#1. First of all let me say once you get 10 seconds or faster RWD passes AWD as far as traction is concerned for drag racing. Just look at the 60's. The ability to put a 4-link suspension as well as the ability to truly heat up some slicks is huge. Even though you can stap some slicks or DR's on to an AWD car they can never properly warm them up at the line ... you can't control a car with all 4 spinning.

#2. Turbo-Manual cars will never be able to launch as well as an automatic N/A car that makes the same power. The turbos simply are not yet "on".

#3. The 3/S is expensive. It isn't a 5.0 or a DSM. If you do it wrong you can very easily spend $30k and end up with a 12 second car.

#4. The car IS heavy. 3800lbs takes something like 1000HP to run 9's. That's 1000HP out of 183 CI ... 6HP/CI. Import, domestic, alien ... that's hard to do without breaking something. That would be the equivalent of making 2000HP out of a 350.

#5. The aftermarket for the car sucks. Until this last year there wasn't a turbo set available for the car that could make 1000HP. If you wanted that kind of power you would have to make everything custom.

#6. People just don't gut them. I dunno why ... my stealth is one of maybe 5 gutted 3/S's in the US.

#7. There is a lot of misinformation out there. When I decided to shoot for the 11's I had to wade through tons of bullshit and even still I ended up wasting a good $2-3000 on parts I didn't need. Knowing what I know now I could make my car just as fast for a lot less. Unfortunately I had to pay to learn this ... money that could be making my car even faster (or running for that matter).

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Also, its a lot easier to put a 4Klbs domestic into the 9's, when engine compartment space isn't a concern and building a motor costs 1/8 the price of what it would take to build a 3S motor.

No shit ... the motor I want for my VR4 would be about $10k. That's $2500 for heads, $1200 for custom cams, $600 for solid lifters, $3500 for the shortblock, $1800 for rods/pistons, $300 for ARP studs, ... then balance/blueprint and someone to put it together ... shit that's more like $11-12k. Sure the engine will hold together for 1000-1200HP ... but that's still a shitload of $$$.

$12k also builds me the longblock for a 1300HP WS6 I plan on owning but also gets me the fuel system and intake I want. :D

And that's just the block. Toss on $6k for the turbo system that will support 1200HP and then a $2500 clutch and a $3000 fuel system and a $2000 Front Mount Intercooler ... yeah it isn't cheap.

Great platform to hit low 12s and high-mid 11s in. Waaaay too expensive beyond that.

Oh and don't get me started on the maintenance issues with the car. It just costs SHITLOADS for everything ... you cannot afford to daily drive this car. $125 for brake pads, $600 for rotors, even a mild clutch is $500 and then 10 hours labor to pull and replace it. Oh and the stock wheels blow and the tires are $250/corner for decent rubber. I daily drove my car for 2 years and it was the dumbest and most expensive thing I ever did.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
well, it probably comes from the fact that people are lazy. The 3S is easy to put into the 12's, a little more work, but not rocket science to put into the 11's, but once you get to the 10's, it requires actually thinking about what you are doing. There are no "kits" available to put a car into the 10's... Therefor, no one tries. The cramped engine compartment makes it difficult to use larger turbos, and the lack of cheap manifolds for TD05 turbos also doesn't help. It SHOULD be doable, but I think people don't do it because they just don't care.

Also, its a lot easier to put a 4Klbs domestic into the 9's, when engine compartment space isn't a concern and building a motor costs 1/8 the price of what it would take to build a 3S motor.

BUT, boost is suposedly a replacement for displacement, BUT, there are naturally aspirated small blocks in the 9's in fairly heavy 3600lb cars, now calculating total volume of air used, im sure the 3s's come close to total displacemnt of air used by a small block. it does get to the point where the AWD is just plain junk for drag racing, BUT the bottom ends of those motors are "supposedly" bullet proof, along with the rest of the driveline, launching under boost is not an issue at all with an electronic wastegate and fuel computer. the engine compartment can also be modified just like it is with the domestics (75% of big block cars have masaged firewalls). I think it boils down to the fact the the car us basically a bad choice for drag racing, and this is why noone puts any effort into them.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
BUT, boost is suposedly a replacement for displacement, BUT, there are naturally aspirated small blocks in the 9's in fairly heavy 3600lb cars, now calculating total volume of air used, im sure the 3s's come close to total displacemnt of air used by a small block. it does get to the point where the AWD is just plain junk for drag racing, BUT the bottom ends of those motors are "supposedly" bullet proof, along with the rest of the driveline, launching under boost is not an issue at all with an electronic wastegate and fuel computer. the engine compartment can also be modified just like it is with the domestics (75% of big block cars have masaged firewalls). I think it boils down to the fact the the car us basically a bad choice for drag racing, and this is why noone puts any effort into them.

It is a bad choice for anything faster than 11's ... or rather an expensive choice. Like I said ... the modifications get too expensive at that point and AWD loses any semblance of an advantage. Also ... you start running into displacement issues. Your 700HP smallblock may be breathing the same amount of air (hence 700HP) but lets compare the torque curves of the engines. You know better than anyone else a 700HP torque curve from a 3.0L engine will look a lot different than a 700HP torque curve from a 7.0L engine. The 3.0L will probably not start making HP until 4500rpms and will have to rev to 7500-8000 in order to be able to shift without falling out of the boost. The N/A won't have this issue and it's power delivery will simply be better.

And ... AWD is parasitic indeed. I mean I can do things like carbon-fiber driveshafts, light-weight flywheels, super-lubricants, etc ... but it will never be RWD.

[MikeRizz]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
if your disconnecting the output, then your still turning the tranfer case, and thats what im talking about.

youd have to disconnect the input shaft to do otherwise

Nope, we drop the transfer case all together, and lock out the diff with a VCE. Or if you can find a JDM transfer case, they have a mechanical switch that allows you to change between AWD / FWD, but you still need a VCE in the trans ( or a welded center diff ). I had one of these and it was great for the Dyno, but I broke it at the track.

[H3llphyre]

Well, we ARE on the quest to see what it takes to put one of those cars in the 9's... Granted, its gutted and modifying firewalls and such is not a huge deal... I'm all about cutting what needs to be cut, and modifying anything else.

But, you are right spenc. It's NOT a good drag car for SERIOUS numbers. It CAN be done (hopefully), just requires some creative thinking.

[Trbotsi]

Buy a tube frame and throw the stealth body panels on it.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Trbotsi
Buy a tube frame and throw the stealth body panels on it.

put it on a trailer behind a funny car.

[Feral]

Put a 533 in it :thumbsup: :smokin: :D