Twin Screw Blowers?

[Igetlaidalot]

who else besides whipple and kenne bell make twin screw blowers, and do ANY of them have premade applications for a carbed pontiac or am i pretty much lookin at a custom?

[igotasweetride]

Originally posted by Igetlaidalot
who else besides whipple and kenne bell make twin screw blowers, and do ANY of them have premade applications for a carbed pontiac or am i pretty much lookin at a custom?

are you retarded or live under a rock? lol 6-71s and 8-71s are out there for every carbed motor you can think of

[igotasweetride]

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/AMS/SC/SC.html#Weiand

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by igotasweetride
are you retarded or live under a rock? lol 6-71s and 8-71s are out there for every carbed motor you can think of

Gm's 71 series are not screw type, they are helical rotor compressors, not screws.....

the difference is that screws compress towards either the front or rear, the helical rotors compress directly underneath.

and if you gonna run a blower, dont use one of those pussy blowers, its not worth it.

[igotasweetride]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
Gm's 71 series are not screw type, they are helical rotor compressors, not screws.....

the difference is that screws compress towards either the front or rear, the helical rotors compress directly underneath.

and if you gonna run a blower, dont use one of those pussy blowers, its not worth it.


arent we fuckin technical :-/

[540Malibu]

blow me:flipoff3: :poke:

[germantoy]

all mercedes kompressor cars utilize a Eaton M90 blower (twin screw) Along with the Ford Thunderbird supercoupes. These blowers are cheap as fuck to get from a yard and they GO FOREVER

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by germantoy
all mercedes kompressor cars utilize a Eaton M90 blower (twin screw) Along with the Ford Thunderbird supercoupes. These blowers are cheap as fuck to get from a yard and they GO FOREVER

As well as GM on top of their 3800 series engine.

Won't really work for his application though. Carb'ed and all...

[bottledbird68]

Sorry Pat, nobody makes anything like that for a Pontiac :eh:

[timGT]

Originally posted by bottledbird68
Sorry Pat, nobody makes anything like that for a Pontiac :eh:

must suck to have a pontiac :smokin:

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by timGT
must suck to have a pontiac :smokin: Only if you have an intense dislike for low end torque :cool2:

[Jcb890]

haha, tim got :owned:

:D

:ban2:

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by timGT
must suck to have a pontiac :smokin:

Yeah, especially if you like going fast... It really sucks... What else sucks is having to swerve, cuz all those slow fords are always getting in the way.

[Slowhawk]

Matter's if your looking for power or looks...Kenne Bell can give some serious boost with low intake temps.
Another new setup is a Procharger intercooled setup.They easily adapt to carbs and I've seen them push 20lbs of boost on Big blocks with no problems.

[Igetlaidalot]

yeah so NOONE makes a twin screw blower, that was my question, yes bryan i know that everyone makes roots blowers for my car, i dont want a roots. i think im going to end up going with a procharger B1sc for 2200 bucks when i get the cash.

[fiveho]

Go turbo.Easy and cheap enough to do it yourself.I know your a pontiac guy but if you want to see some real cowboy shit with turbos,check out turbomustang.com The good folks over there are doing some retarded things with twins and carbs or fuel injection.Plus there is a real good section called The Knowledge base.It applies to turbos in general,not just Fords.Read that.It's what convinced me that that's the way to go.It's a way to go fast for less,or split your block in the process.Oh,almost forgot.They also have a great junkyard,diy forum with all kinds of info about turbos you can pull out of the junkyard and shit.Sorry if I sound like a bitch for that site,but I'm hooked.There is some really fascinating stuff going on in those forums.Just my .02.Check it out.Later,Paul

[Igetlaidalot]

yeah but turbos would make my car lose a lot of appeal for me. a blower is classic. not that im tryin to be like everyone else, but its true, there are some things i dont think belong in a classic car, unless its strictly for the strip. my opinion is that turbos are one of them. i can get power other ways, and a blower would end up being cheaper than a turbo to get the kind of power i want from my motor.

[fiveho]

That's cool.Just a suggestion.I'm just thinking about my own car running mid 11's or high 10's someday on pump gas and a 3.27 final drive.But that's a long way off.Too much stuff to do first.

[Igetlaidalot]

yeah thanks man, i thought about it, but it just doesnt work for me. now when i buy a new fbody, ie when i get a mid 90s trans am, eventually you can look for that setup. of course thats like 9 cars down the list, so itll be awhile

[Brad S]

I could be wrong, but last time I looked that m90 was not a twin screw, it was a roots.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Brad S
I could be wrong, but last time I looked that m90 was not a twin screw, it was a roots.

"look ma, two screws...."

http://www.capa.com.au/pics/eaton_m90_4th.gif

[bottledbird68]

Hay Pat, why not just spray it. It would be a hell of a lot cheaper. And that $2,200 blower you're looking at doesn't include even half the stuff you'll need to put it on the car. Just my .02 :cool2:

[Igetlaidalot]

yeah well i plan on both matt!

the blower kti comes with all the tubing, the blower, the carb hat, idlers, the bracket(which is useless since i need to custom fab one), the belts, and some other stuff i cant remember. the other things i can think of off the top of my head are a carb, electric fuel pump, head work, intake manifold and cam(dont NEED the last three, but should to take advantage of it) im also going to do a rebuild prior to blowing it, just because it could use one anyway, and i have forged pistons, but not rods, and i want both.

and theres another one i could run for 1900, same kit, smaller blower, would still let me get to the 600-650 horse i want, but the one fo 2200 will let me get about a hundred more, so when i get greedy, i will already have the potential.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Brad S
I could be wrong, but last time I looked that m90 was not a twin screw, it was a roots.

roots refers to intake design, inlet at top, outlet at bottom as designed by the Roots brothers, in order to draw from the rear you must have a screw which compresses towards the front.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Igetlaidalot
yeah well i plan on both matt!

the blower kti comes with all the tubing, the blower, the carb hat, idlers, the bracket(which is useless since i need to custom fab one), the belts, and some other stuff i cant remember. the other things i can think of off the top of my head are a carb, electric fuel pump, head work, intake manifold and cam(dont NEED the last three, but should to take advantage of it) im also going to do a rebuild prior to blowing it, just because it could use one anyway, and i have forged pistons, but not rods, and i want both.

and theres another one i could run for 1900, same kit, smaller blower, would still let me get to the 600-650 horse i want, but the one fo 2200 will let me get about a hundred more, so when i get greedy, i will already have the potential.

all rods are forged unless they are billet. or the ones from the autozone keychains. the only difference is material.

[Igetlaidalot]

ok, let me rephrase, im getting eagle rods to support more power and boost

[Brad S]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
"look ma, two screws...."

http://www.capa.com.au/pics/eaton_m90_4th.gif

Mine looks just like that only bigger and it does NOT have two screws. Just because the case has two bumps doesnt mean its a twin screw.

[Brad S]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
roots refers to intake design, inlet at top, outlet at bottom as designed by the Roots brothers, in order to draw from the rear you must have a screw which compresses towards the front.

Roots also means impellers drive the air, infact thats the main feature of the blower. A true twin screw blower is not like this eaton. A true twin screw does not use impellers, its got two screws that literally screw the air, correct? The only eaton that is a true twin screw I believe is the new blower on the fords GT. Other than that I've never heard of one.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Brad S
Mine looks just like that only bigger and it does NOT have two screws. Just because the case has two bumps doesnt mean its a twin screw.

Yeah, I obviously don't know what I am talking about.... Oh wait, maybe I do...


http://www.thrashercharged.com/images/blower_disassembled/removing_rotors.JPG
http://www.thrashercharged.com/images/blower_disassembled/exploded_blower.JPG
http://www.thrashercharged.com/images/blower_disassembled/rotors.JPG

To be overly technical, the S/C on your car is the M112, which is only a larger version of the M90. Actually, a lot of people are now upgrading their M90's with M112's. It is putting bonnevilles into the 11's, which is both stupid and kinda neat at the same time. So... You supercharger IS twin screw, as is the M90, and they are more or less the same, just differently sized.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
all rods are forged unless they are billet. or the ones from the autozone keychains. the only difference is material.

Actually, there is such a thing as cast rods...

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Brad S
Roots also means impellers drive the air, infact thats the main feature of the blower. A true twin screw blower is not like this eaton. A true twin screw does not use impellers, its got two screws that literally screw the air, correct? The only eaton that is a true twin screw I believe is the new blower on the fords GT. Other than that I've never heard of one.

nope, roots superchargers DO NOT use impellers, centrifugals and turbos use impellers. the other use rotors including the whipple design. The eatons use a screw type draw to suck the air in the rear of the case and compress it towards the bottom, traditional roots blowers (also called positive displacement), compress first than suck air in, the eatons, suck the air in and then compress it.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Actually, there is such a thing as cast rods...

not since the 1920's

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
not since the 1920's

You said there was no such thing... LOL. Just being technical about it. What, no swap meet for you?

[540Malibu]

i work sat. mornings

[Brad S]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Yeah, I obviously don't know what I am talking about.... Oh wait, maybe I do...


http://www.thrashercharged.com/images/blower_disassembled/removing_rotors.JPG
http://www.thrashercharged.com/images/blower_disassembled/exploded_blower.JPG
http://www.thrashercharged.com/images/blower_disassembled/rotors.JPG

To be overly technical, the S/C on your car is the M112, which is only a larger version of the M90. Actually, a lot of people are now upgrading their M90's with M112's. It is putting bonnevilles into the 11's, which is both stupid and kinda neat at the same time. So... You supercharger IS twin screw, as is the M90, and they are more or less the same, just differently sized.

Thats not a twin screw man, its an impeller setup, or a ROOTS style

Roots: The roots type supercharger is two counter-rotating meshed lobed rotors. The two rotors trap air in the gaps between rotors and push it against the compressor housing as they rotate towards the outlet/discharge port. During each rotation, a specific fixed amount of air is trapped and moved to the outlet port where it is compressed, which is why the roots type supercharger falls under the broader catogory of fixed-displacement superchargers (like the twin screw supercharger).
http://www.superchargersonline.com/images/tech/roots/roots_diagram.jpg

Here is what a twin screw setup looks like, note the difference and the fact it uses SCREWS.

http://www.superchargersonline.com/images/tech/whipple/concept3b.jpg

dont know why you both are arguing with me, check out this site, it explains it very clearly.

CLICK here (http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf)

Just because its got two things spinning around in it, does NOT mean they are screws, which was my point. I've had my snout off before, I know what the internals of the eaton look like, and they don't involve screws:thumbsup:

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Brad S
Thats not a twin screw man, its an impeller setup, or a ROOTS style

Roots: The roots type supercharger is two counter-rotating meshed lobed rotors. The two rotors trap air in the gaps between rotors and push it against the compressor housing as they rotate towards the outlet/discharge port. During each rotation, a specific fixed amount of air is trapped and moved to the outlet port where it is compressed, which is why the roots type supercharger falls under the broader catogory of fixed-displacement superchargers (like the twin screw supercharger).
http://www.superchargersonline.com/images/tech/roots/roots_diagram.jpg

Here is what a twin screw setup looks like, note the difference and the fact it uses SCREWS.

http://www.superchargersonline.com/images/tech/whipple/concept3b.jpg

dont know why you both are arguing with me, check out this site, it explains it very clearly.

CLICK here (http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf)

Okay okay, i see where you are coming from. Still no impellers. Impellers are for centrifugal blowers or turbos, not this style. I now see the difference between twin screws and the "roots". Its a matter of where the air travels. Looks like the "Lysholm" blower is more efficent. Whipple imports em, ken belle uses Autorotors, which licensed the tech. Now that I have read up on em, they are quite interesting. Ah well, I stand corrected.

[Brad S]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Okay okay, i see where you are coming from. Still no impellers. Impellers are for centrifugal blowers or turbos, not this style. I now see the difference between twin screws and the "roots". Its a matter of where the air travels. Looks like the "Lysholm" blower is more efficent. Whipple imports em, ken belle uses Autorotors, which licensed the tech. Now that I have read up on em, they are quite interesting. Ah well, I stand corrected.

I think they are called impellers. Some people upgrade the internals of the eaton and those rotors are sold as m112 impellers. I looked around and the first site I found refers to them as impellers also. CLICK HERE (http://www.gadgetonline.com/Super.htm)

Same thing with my fishtank pumps, they all run on the same type of rotor (impeller) setup. When you buy a replacement rotor its sold as (power head impeller) hehe, same exact thing as an eaton blower. haha.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Brad S
I think they are called impellers. Some people upgrade the internals of the eaton and those rotors are sold as m112 impellers. I looked around and the first site I found refers to them as impellers also. CLICK HERE (http://www.gadgetonline.com/Super.htm)

Same thing with my fishtank pumps, they all run on the same type of rotor (impeller) setup. When you buy a replacement rotor its sold as (power head impeller) hehe, same exact thing as an eaton blower. haha.
Yeah, a matter of semantics now. Something that needs not to be argued. Hmm, now I am interested in those twin screw blowers. Must see if they make em for LT1's.

[Brad S]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Yeah, a matter of semantics now. Something that needs not to be argued. Hmm, now I am interested in those twin screw blowers. Must see if they make em for LT1's.

Yeah they are very very awesome. They make alot more power than the roots just based on how efficient they are. 14 pounds on the eaton is about 500RWHP, 14 pounds on the Twin screw is about 550RWHP. Awesome gains. Plus they can handle more boost with a lower temp. The eaton is heat soaked after one pull.:bash:

[540Malibu]

Tech Articles

Twin-Screw Supercharger



A variation on the positive-displacement configuration, externally a twin-screw supercharger appears much like the common Roots design, but inside the case it’s a different story. Air enters the twin-screw supercharger through the rear or top rear and is compressed internally between screw-like rotors. The twin screw’s shorter airflow path reduces the high turbulence, friction, heat, and pumping losses characteristic of classic Roots designs, but without sacrificing the positive-displacement design’s instantaneous boost virtues. In one comparison of similarly sized Roots and twin-screw blowers, the Roots’ intake temperature rise from boost was about double that of a twin screw (about 8.6 degrees F/psi for the twin screw compared to the Roots’ 15-18 degrees F/psi). That extra charge temperature robs power potential. High-end racing twin-screw blowers exist, but they are not widespread because many rule-makers discriminate against them. However, small-screw compressors sold by Kenne-Bell have gained some popularity among the 5.0L Mustang and import crowd.


On the twin-screw design, the male rotor rotates clockwise while the female rotor rotates counterclockwise, trapping and compressing air and fuel between them. The rotors then channel (or “screw”) the air toward the front where it is discharged into the intake manifold.


Kenne-Bell’s Blowzilla displaces 2.2L and fits under the hood of late-model 5.0L Mustangs. Depending on intake ducting configuration, the blower can make up to 657 hp. This version uses an external bypass to circulate excess air when not under boost.


__________________________________________________ _

Tech Articles

Rotor Superchargers



Rotor or positive-displacement superchargers were first developed in the mid-1800s by the Roots brothers. "Positive displacement" means that with each full rotation of the compressor element, a specific fixed volume of air is pumped from the inlet side to the exhaust outlet. As its name implies, a rotor blower utilizes intermeshing rotors inside a case bolted atop a special intake manifold. A crank-mounted pulley spins a drive pulley via a belt (cogged on larger blowers); the drive pulley in turn connects to meshed gears that spin the rotors. As the rotors spin, they compress air and fuel supplied by carburetors or a fuel-injection system mounted on top of the blower case. In the classic Roots design, the mixture is pumped between the supercharger case and rotors.

Rotor superchargers build instantaneous boost pressure down low and maintain it as rpm increase, but efficiency tapers off on the top-end due to heat buildup inside the case and leakage past the rotor seals. Heat buildup makes the engine more detonation-prone--a real problem with today's low-octane fuel. According to Blower Drive Service, one solution is to run a slightly bigger blower, then underdrive it slightly. Bearing this in mind and assuming the blower is properly sized for the engine and application, a Roots supercharger would be a great choice for street cars were it not for its high system height. But for some hard-core gearheads, that's not necessarily a drawback--there's no better visual statement than a big Roots poking through a hole in the hood!

Big Roots blowers traditionally use two big carbs. But BDS also offers electronic fuel- injection packages that greatly enhance driveability. Here, EFI feeds an 8-71 atop a small-block Chevy. The “bugcatcher” serves as an air meter. Computers used in BDS kits can be reprogrammed over the phone.


The familiar positive-displacement rotor supercharger has powered everything from street machines to Top Fuel dragsters. They may differ in size and detail, but they all share a similar layout.


Real 71-series rotors have three helically machined blades positioned 120 degrees apart. This raises the number of pumping cycles while reducing outlet-side surging. Result: more stable, less-restrictive flow—but the rotors are hard to machine. Teflon strips on aftermarket versions improve sealing.


The 6- and 8-71 blowers usually fit the same intake (A). This BDS big-block Ford unit can be opened up (1) to accept 10-, 12-, or 14-71 blowers. Offset plates adapt 16-71 cases (B). The little 4-71s use their own intake (C). Spring-loaded backfire valves prevent damage from engine backfires (arrow 2).

__________________________________________________ __


Tech Articles

Centrifugal Supercharger



Like a turbocharger, centrifugal superchargers use a spinning impeller to compress air. But unlike an exhaust-driven turbo, the centrifugal supercharger's impeller is spun off the crankshaft by pulleys and a drivebelt.

Depending on size and design, centrifugal blowers are capable of significant power increases, yet their relatively compact size in comparison to the massive positive-displacement design lets them fit under the hood of just about any vehicle. Centrifugal blowers are usually mounted somewhere on the front of the engine via brackets designed for each engine application. Because a special intake manifold isn't required, they are especially compatible with late-model fuel-injected cars where they're set up to blow through the air meter. Turnkey, smog-legal kits for late-model packages are available from companies like Vortec, Paxton, and Procharger and include the supercharger, ducting, oil lines, and all necessary adapter brackets. On the other hand, the latest race-oriented units are capable of feeding large-displacement, high-boost applications through 1,400 hp--and you can always use two!

A centrifugal supercharger optimized for max top-end boost and power usually won't build low-end boost as quickly as a rotor blower. While the rotor blower builds boost early and maintains it as rpm increases, a centrifugal blower builds boost exponentially--in other words, doubling the blower's rotational rpm causes the boost to quadruple. Because typical street engines are boost-limited due to emissions, engine durability, and fuel quality factors, the blower drive ratio must be set to provide a specified boost level at a specific rpm. This causes either a reduction in potential top-end power or less low-speed boost. On the other hand, lower boost downstairs can be an advantage--there are less traction problems and a reduced chance of detonation.

A centrifugal blower looks very much like a turbocharger, but it’s driven by a belt instead of exhaust gases. Many sizes and flow ratings are offered. The tiny Vortech V-5 G-Trim (left) is for 1.4-4.0L motors up to 450 hp. The mondo V-4 Z-Trim unit (right) develops up to 1,600 hp on big-inch engines.


Known for smog-legal kits that fit late-model EFI-equipped cars and trucks, Vortech recently introduced a complete centrifugal system for carbureted Chevy small-block V-8 applications. The nifty universal carb enclosure could also be used to fabricate custom setups for other engines.


Vortech’s carburetor enclosure makes a carbureted blow-through system practical as exotic mods like sealed throttle shafts aren’t needed. Blow-through carb setups avoid the fuel-puddling and throttle-response woes typical of old-tech draw-through long-tract setups.






all this can be found at http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/93500/

[Brad S]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
Tech Articles

Twin-Screw Supercharger



A variation on the positive-displacement configuration, externally a twin-screw supercharger appears much like the common Roots design, but inside the case it’s a different story. Air enters the twin-screw supercharger through the rear or top rear and is compressed internally between screw-like rotors. The twin screw’s shorter airflow path reduces the high turbulence, friction, heat, and pumping losses characteristic of classic Roots designs, but without sacrificing the positive-displacement design’s instantaneous boost virtues. In one comparison of similarly sized Roots and twin-screw blowers, the Roots’ intake temperature rise from boost was about double that of a twin screw (about 8.6 degrees F/psi for the twin screw compared to the Roots’ 15-18 degrees F/psi). That extra charge temperature robs power potential. High-end racing twin-screw blowers exist, but they are not widespread because many rule-makers discriminate against them. However, small-screw compressors sold by Kenne-Bell have gained some popularity among the 5.0L Mustang and import crowd.


On the twin-screw design, the male rotor rotates clockwise while the female rotor rotates counterclockwise, trapping and compressing air and fuel between them. The rotors then channel (or “screw”) the air toward the front where it is discharged into the intake manifold.


Kenne-Bell’s Blowzilla displaces 2.2L and fits under the hood of late-model 5.0L Mustangs. Depending on intake ducting configuration, the blower can make up to 657 hp. This version uses an external bypass to circulate excess air when not under boost.


__________________________________________________ _

Tech Articles

Rotor Superchargers



Rotor or positive-displacement superchargers were first developed in the mid-1800s by the Roots brothers. "Positive displacement" means that with each full rotation of the compressor element, a specific fixed volume of air is pumped from the inlet side to the exhaust outlet. As its name implies, a rotor blower utilizes intermeshing rotors inside a case bolted atop a special intake manifold. A crank-mounted pulley spins a drive pulley via a belt (cogged on larger blowers); the drive pulley in turn connects to meshed gears that spin the rotors. As the rotors spin, they compress air and fuel supplied by carburetors or a fuel-injection system mounted on top of the blower case. In the classic Roots design, the mixture is pumped between the supercharger case and rotors.

Rotor superchargers build instantaneous boost pressure down low and maintain it as rpm increase, but efficiency tapers off on the top-end due to heat buildup inside the case and leakage past the rotor seals. Heat buildup makes the engine more detonation-prone--a real problem with today's low-octane fuel. According to Blower Drive Service, one solution is to run a slightly bigger blower, then underdrive it slightly. Bearing this in mind and assuming the blower is properly sized for the engine and application, a Roots supercharger would be a great choice for street cars were it not for its high system height. But for some hard-core gearheads, that's not necessarily a drawback--there's no better visual statement than a big Roots poking through a hole in the hood!

Big Roots blowers traditionally use two big carbs. But BDS also offers electronic fuel- injection packages that greatly enhance driveability. Here, EFI feeds an 8-71 atop a small-block Chevy. The “bugcatcher” serves as an air meter. Computers used in BDS kits can be reprogrammed over the phone.


The familiar positive-displacement rotor supercharger has powered everything from street machines to Top Fuel dragsters. They may differ in size and detail, but they all share a similar layout.


Real 71-series rotors have three helically machined blades positioned 120 degrees apart. This raises the number of pumping cycles while reducing outlet-side surging. Result: more stable, less-restrictive flow—but the rotors are hard to machine. Teflon strips on aftermarket versions improve sealing.


The 6- and 8-71 blowers usually fit the same intake (A). This BDS big-block Ford unit can be opened up (1) to accept 10-, 12-, or 14-71 blowers. Offset plates adapt 16-71 cases (B). The little 4-71s use their own intake (C). Spring-loaded backfire valves prevent damage from engine backfires (arrow 2).

__________________________________________________ __


Tech Articles

Centrifugal Supercharger



Like a turbocharger, centrifugal superchargers use a spinning impeller to compress air. But unlike an exhaust-driven turbo, the centrifugal supercharger's impeller is spun off the crankshaft by pulleys and a drivebelt.

Depending on size and design, centrifugal blowers are capable of significant power increases, yet their relatively compact size in comparison to the massive positive-displacement design lets them fit under the hood of just about any vehicle. Centrifugal blowers are usually mounted somewhere on the front of the engine via brackets designed for each engine application. Because a special intake manifold isn't required, they are especially compatible with late-model fuel-injected cars where they're set up to blow through the air meter. Turnkey, smog-legal kits for late-model packages are available from companies like Vortec, Paxton, and Procharger and include the supercharger, ducting, oil lines, and all necessary adapter brackets. On the other hand, the latest race-oriented units are capable of feeding large-displacement, high-boost applications through 1,400 hp--and you can always use two!

A centrifugal supercharger optimized for max top-end boost and power usually won't build low-end boost as quickly as a rotor blower. While the rotor blower builds boost early and maintains it as rpm increases, a centrifugal blower builds boost exponentially--in other words, doubling the blower's rotational rpm causes the boost to quadruple. Because typical street engines are boost-limited due to emissions, engine durability, and fuel quality factors, the blower drive ratio must be set to provide a specified boost level at a specific rpm. This causes either a reduction in potential top-end power or less low-speed boost. On the other hand, lower boost downstairs can be an advantage--there are less traction problems and a reduced chance of detonation.

A centrifugal blower looks very much like a turbocharger, but it’s driven by a belt instead of exhaust gases. Many sizes and flow ratings are offered. The tiny Vortech V-5 G-Trim (left) is for 1.4-4.0L motors up to 450 hp. The mondo V-4 Z-Trim unit (right) develops up to 1,600 hp on big-inch engines.


Known for smog-legal kits that fit late-model EFI-equipped cars and trucks, Vortech recently introduced a complete centrifugal system for carbureted Chevy small-block V-8 applications. The nifty universal carb enclosure could also be used to fabricate custom setups for other engines.


Vortech’s carburetor enclosure makes a carbureted blow-through system practical as exotic mods like sealed throttle shafts aren’t needed. Blow-through carb setups avoid the fuel-puddling and throttle-response woes typical of old-tech draw-through long-tract setups.






all this can be found at http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/93500/

Yes, thats all well and good, but I already proved my point. The above stuff goes into the detail about the roots style etc, but a roots IS not a twin screw, that was my only point. Like I said, a roots may have two things spinning around in it, but its not two screws. Screws are specific to a twin screw blower, hence the name. For the sake of argument, lets call roots rotors widgets. haha:thumbsup:

[540Malibu]

Twin-Screw Supercharger



A variation on the positive-displacement configuration, externally a twin-screw supercharger appears much like the common Roots design, but inside the case it’s a different story. Air enters the twin-screw supercharger through the rear or top rear and is compressed internally between screw-like rotors. The twin screw’s shorter airflow path reduces the high turbulence, friction, heat, and pumping losses characteristic of classic Roots designs, but without sacrificing the positive-displacement design’s instantaneous boost virtues. In one comparison of similarly sized Roots and twin-screw blowers, the Roots’ intake temperature rise from boost was about double that of a twin screw (about 8.6 degrees F/psi for the twin screw compared to the Roots’ 15-18 degrees F/psi). That extra charge temperature robs power potential. High-end racing twin-screw blowers exist, but they are not widespread because many rule-makers discriminate against them. However, small-screw compressors sold by Kenne-Bell have gained some popularity among the 5.0L Mustang and import crowd.



Kenne-Bell’s Blowzilla displaces 2.2L and fits under the hood of late-model 5.0L Mustangs. Depending on intake ducting configuration, the blower can make up to 657 hp. This version uses an external bypass to circulate excess air when not under boost.

On the twin-screw design, the male rotor rotates clockwise while the female rotor rotates counterclockwise, trapping and compressing air and fuel between them. The rotors then channel (or “screw”) the air toward the front where it is discharged into the intake manifold.

[Brad S]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
Twin-Screw Supercharger



A variation on the positive-displacement configuration, externally a twin-screw supercharger appears much like the common Roots design, but inside the case it’s a different story. Air enters the twin-screw supercharger through the rear or top rear and is compressed internally between screw-like rotors. The twin screw’s shorter airflow path reduces the high turbulence, friction, heat, and pumping losses characteristic of classic Roots designs, but without sacrificing the positive-displacement design’s instantaneous boost virtues. In one comparison of similarly sized Roots and twin-screw blowers, the Roots’ intake temperature rise from boost was about double that of a twin screw (about 8.6 degrees F/psi for the twin screw compared to the Roots’ 15-18 degrees F/psi). That extra charge temperature robs power potential. High-end racing twin-screw blowers exist, but they are not widespread because many rule-makers discriminate against them. However, small-screw compressors sold by Kenne-Bell have gained some popularity among the 5.0L Mustang and import crowd.



Kenne-Bell’s Blowzilla displaces 2.2L and fits under the hood of late-model 5.0L Mustangs. Depending on intake ducting configuration, the blower can make up to 657 hp. This version uses an external bypass to circulate excess air when not under boost.

On the twin-screw design, the male rotor rotates clockwise while the female rotor rotates counterclockwise, trapping and compressing air and fuel between them. The rotors then channel (or “screw”) the air toward the front where it is discharged into the intake manifold.

Yeah, whats your point? All the links I supplied say pretty much the same thing. Either way, at the very least you can see a huge difference in the rotor design between the two blowers just by looking at the things. One has things that look like screws (twin screw) The other uses three flat blate rotors (roots.) Thats my only point.

[540Malibu]

http://www.automotive.eaton.com/images/products/diagram2.jpg


how does this take in air?

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Brad S
Yeah, whats your point? All the links I supplied say pretty much the same thing. Either way, at the very least you can see a huge difference in the rotor design between the two blowers just by looking at the things. One has things that look like screws (twin screw) The other uses three flat blate rotors (roots.) Thats my only point.

m60's/m90's do not have flat lobe rotors, they are twisted 60 degrees further than a traditional roots type, making them compress like a screw to be mroe efficient.

[Brad S]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
m60's/m90's do not have flat lobe rotors, they are twisted 60 degrees further than a traditional roots type, making them compress like a screw to be mroe efficient.
My mistake in wording, sorry. 3 edged. Which is NOT a screw type so drop it. You're going into way too much detail about something thats not even in question. I'm talking about screw design, and roots just isnt the same as a twin screw.

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by Igetlaidalot
yeah well i plan on both matt!

the blower kti comes with all the tubing, the blower, the carb hat, idlers, the bracket(which is useless since i need to custom fab one), the belts, and some other stuff i cant remember. the other things i can think of off the top of my head are a carb, electric fuel pump, head work, intake manifold and cam(dont NEED the last three, but should to take advantage of it) im also going to do a rebuild prior to blowing it, just because it could use one anyway, and i have forged pistons, but not rods, and i want both.

and theres another one i could run for 1900, same kit, smaller blower, would still let me get to the 600-650 horse i want, but the one fo 2200 will let me get about a hundred more, so when i get greedy, i will already have the potential. Here's a question, did you call ATI and ask them about bracket kits for Pontiacs or just look at their website? There was distributor of theirs that offered bolt on kits for pontiac motors a few years back, I would imagine they are still around but I don't know for sure. Next question, if you're looking to get 600 horse for the money you're going to spend just get a good set of ported heads and a big roller cam and save yourself the headache of the bracket mess (unless you want the look and sound in which case I can't argue with it :D) Besides that I was told that the small ATI blower is an extremely tight fit with the inner fenderwell on a first gen firebird. I'm not sure if any of the larger ones will fit without removing or modifying it. Seems like a lot of headache for practically the same money of just doing it "all motor". It's the reason I built what I built, I looked into the same thing as you but it didn't seem as cost effective to me. And yes I know there is the potential to make lots more power with boost but keep in mind once you start clearing 750 plus horse in a pontiac the stock blocks have a tendency to split up through the mains so it's kind of a moot point, unless you want to spend over 3 grand for the unmachined aftermarket block. Then the sky's the limit :thumbsup: Same reason why I wouldn't recomend putting nitrous on the supercharged pontiac motor. If you do cross your fingers every time you hit the button. Not saying it will happen right away but there is a good chance.



And Spence, taken directly from Rock and Roll engineering's website:
STEEL CAST STOCK RODS
THE STOCK STEEL CAST RODS ARE MUCH STRONGER THAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING. THE EARLY FORGED RODS ARE RUBBER IN COMPARISON. THE EARLY FORGED RODS ROCKWELL HARDNESS TEST AT A VERY LOW NUMBER COMPARED TO THEIR CAST STEEL COUNTERPARTS. TOM SMITH RAN OUR CAST STEEL STOCK RODS IN HIS BLOWN AND NITROUS 421 CORVAIR PICK-UP TRUCK (HALF BREED) THAT RAN 9.61 AT 141 MPH IN 1993. THAT ENGINE IS STILL TOGETHER, SOME 30,000 MILES LATER. DEPENDING ON WHAT LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE YOU'RE AFTER, YOU CAN PUT YOUR SAVINGS SOMEWHERE ELSE IN YOUR ENGINE BY USING THE STOCK CAST STEEL RODS. PROPERLY PREPPED, THE STOCK RODS RESIZED WITH ARP BOLTS AND SRP PISTONS CAN TAKE 7000 RPM. WE HAVE PROVEN THIS. THE BEST WAY TO SPEND YOUR MONEY IS TO BUY A LIGHT WEIGHT PISTON AND WRIST PIN, EFFECTIVELY STRENGTHENING THE ROD AND CRANK, WHICH GIVES YOU THE ADDED BENEFIT OF ALLOWING THE ASSEMBLY TO WIND UP TO IT'S RPM POTENTIAL QUICKER. WHICH, IS WHAT YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE.
Of course I still bought Eagle rods myself but it is food for thought http://www.mustangworld.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Blackwidow]

Pat-
Love where you're going with the classic muscle idea .. but .. matt's got a point .. it would be a lot cheaper and more reliable to build that engine to a T .. and increase air flow as well as power output .. then .. when you have a good amount of money to play with down the road .. you can pick and choose what you want more freely ..


.. but i think that kit is cool .. go for it

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by bottledbird68
Here's a question, did you call ATI and ask them about bracket kits for Pontiacs or just look at their website? There was distributor of theirs that offered bolt on kits for pontiac motors a few years back, I would imagine they are still around but I don't know for sure. Next question, if you're looking to get 600 horse for the money you're going to spend just get a good set of ported heads and a big roller cam and save yourself the headache of the bracket mess (unless you want the look and sound in which case I can't argue with it :D) Besides that I was told that the small ATI blower is an extremely tight fit with the inner fenderwell on a first gen firebird. I'm not sure if any of the larger ones will fit without removing or modifying it. Seems like a lot of headache for practically the same money of just doing it "all motor". It's the reason I built what I built, I looked into the same thing as you but it didn't seem as cost effective to me. And yes I know there is the potential to make lots more power with boost but keep in mind once you start clearing 750 plus horse in a pontiac the stock blocks have a tendency to split up through the mains so it's kind of a moot point, unless you want to spend over 3 grand for the unmachined aftermarket block. Then the sky's the limit :thumbsup: Same reason why I wouldn't recomend putting nitrous on the supercharged pontiac motor. If you do cross your fingers every time you hit the button. Not saying it will happen right away but there is a good chance.



And Spence, taken directly from Rock and Roll engineering's website:
STEEL CAST STOCK RODS
THE STOCK STEEL CAST RODS ARE MUCH STRONGER THAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING. THE EARLY FORGED RODS ARE RUBBER IN COMPARISON. THE EARLY FORGED RODS ROCKWELL HARDNESS TEST AT A VERY LOW NUMBER COMPARED TO THEIR CAST STEEL COUNTERPARTS. TOM SMITH RAN OUR CAST STEEL STOCK RODS IN HIS BLOWN AND NITROUS 421 CORVAIR PICK-UP TRUCK (HALF BREED) THAT RAN 9.61 AT 141 MPH IN 1993. THAT ENGINE IS STILL TOGETHER, SOME 30,000 MILES LATER. DEPENDING ON WHAT LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE YOU'RE AFTER, YOU CAN PUT YOUR SAVINGS SOMEWHERE ELSE IN YOUR ENGINE BY USING THE STOCK CAST STEEL RODS. PROPERLY PREPPED, THE STOCK RODS RESIZED WITH ARP BOLTS AND SRP PISTONS CAN TAKE 7000 RPM. WE HAVE PROVEN THIS. THE BEST WAY TO SPEND YOUR MONEY IS TO BUY A LIGHT WEIGHT PISTON AND WRIST PIN, EFFECTIVELY STRENGTHENING THE ROD AND CRANK, WHICH GIVES YOU THE ADDED BENEFIT OF ALLOWING THE ASSEMBLY TO WIND UP TO IT'S RPM POTENTIAL QUICKER. WHICH, IS WHAT YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE.
Of course I still bought Eagle rods myself but it is food for thought http://www.mustangworld.com/ubb/wink.gif


yes cast rods have been made, but taken from car craft....:
Cast-Steel

We won’t waste much time discussing cast-steel rods because they’re poorly suited to any type of serious performance use. Though the casting process is very inexpensive and results in “near net” shapes that require minimal machining, the lack of a cohesive grain pattern and compromised molecular binding yields brittle parts. Trust us, brittle connecting rods are the last thing you want in a performance engine.

In the ’60s and ’70s, American Motors, Cadillac, Buick, and Pontiac all used cast rods in a wide variety of engine designs. In an effort to improve molecular binding and strength, the molten metal was injected into the mold cavity under high pressure. The resulting castings may have been good enough for use in everything from GTOs to Jeeps, but they have no place in anything other than the most fanatical numbers-matching restoration effort. Worst of all, these cast parts had to be made heavier than comparable forged rods to maintain strength. When you consider that a cast “Arma-Steel” Pontiac 455 rod weighs 31.7 ounces and a stock Chevy 454 forged rod weighs 27.4 ounces, you’ll agree they’re the automotive equivalent of recycled cardboard.

[Igetlaidalot]

yeah matt i called up a couple dealers and they all said the same thing about the bracketry, get a sbc kit and build your own bracket.

I hadnt really considered the fitting of the blower under my hood, i wouldnt care with a roots design, because it would lok badass with a bugcatcher coming out of my hood, but im not cuttin a hol in the side of my hood for a centrifugal.

Realistically tho matt, can i make 600-650 with even the best heads, a roller cam, and all the compliments and keep it somewhat streetable??thats an advantage of the blower is that it lets you keep a little more of it on the street.

And toss out some price differences if you could too, going either way, blown or NA, and what i could get with each setup for a certain amount of money, and where that money would be going.


plus if i get it blown, then i get to get a sticker that says "Injection is nice, but id rather be BLOWN" and thats like 23 horse right there

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
yes cast rods have been made, but taken from car craft....:
Cast-Steel

We won’t waste much time discussing cast-steel rods because they’re poorly suited to any type of serious performance use. Though the casting process is very inexpensive and results in “near net” shapes that require minimal machining, the lack of a cohesive grain pattern and compromised molecular binding yields brittle parts. Trust us, brittle connecting rods are the last thing you want in a performance engine.

In the ’60s and ’70s, American Motors, Cadillac, Buick, and Pontiac all used cast rods in a wide variety of engine designs. In an effort to improve molecular binding and strength, the molten metal was injected into the mold cavity under high pressure. The resulting castings may have been good enough for use in everything from GTOs to Jeeps, but they have no place in anything other than the most fanatical numbers-matching restoration effort. Worst of all, these cast parts had to be made heavier than comparable forged rods to maintain strength. When you consider that a cast “Arma-Steel” Pontiac 455 rod weighs 31.7 ounces and a stock Chevy 454 forged rod weighs 27.4 ounces, you’ll agree they’re the automotive equivalent of recycled cardboard. I wasn't arguing their merits in a performance engine, just their existence :D That and from the quote you can see they have been used, I also wonder why myself though.....

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by bottledbird68
I wasn't arguing their merits in a performance engine, just their existence :D That and from the quote you can see they have been used, I also wonder why myself though.....

virtually non-existent, but everyone makes stupid products once in a while, like ford putting a GM supercharger on their cars.

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by Igetlaidalot
yeah matt i called up a couple dealers and they all said the same thing about the bracketry, get a sbc kit and build your own bracket.

I hadnt really considered the fitting of the blower under my hood, i wouldnt care with a roots design, because it would lok badass with a bugcatcher coming out of my hood, but im not cuttin a hol in the side of my hood for a centrifugal.

Realistically tho matt, can i make 600-650 with even the best heads, a roller cam, and all the compliments and keep it somewhat streetable??thats an advantage of the blower is that it lets you keep a little more of it on the street. You wouldn't have to cut the hood, possibly just the inner fenderwell. Don't call dealers for ATI, call ATI directly and they can put you in touch if the pontiac dealer is still around.
As far as streetable? That's a broad question. Ask me or Spencer and we'll tell you that anything is streetable :cool2: 600 horse will put you an the ragged edge of streetability but you bet your ass I'll drive mine all over the country with it. We have a few roadtrips in the planning for next year. So streetable is a relative term that only you can answer. However, 500 or slightly more horse is easily done on well ported heads and would be "streetable" by anyone's standards. After that like I said earlier, spray it and you're right there with a much easier hit on the wallet. Don't want to sound like a nitrous fanboy here but going the blower route on a pontiac seems like an expensive way to add another 100 horse. Unless of course you want the look and sound, in which case I can't say I blame you one bit. Just my .02 :cool2:

[Igetlaidalot]

yeah the look and sounds wouldnt be too bad...:hitit2:

i wouldnt mind chopping up the inner fenderwell either, and hell yeah me to ill drive anything, in fact it gets more streetable the faster it gets.


it pretty much boils down to what i can get with each route for how much coin

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by Igetlaidalot
yeah the look and sounds wouldnt be too bad...:hitit2:

i wouldnt mind chopping up the inner fenderwell either, and hell yeah me to ill drive anything, in fact it gets more streetable the faster it gets.


it pretty much boils down to what i can get with each route for how much coin Cheapest route would be well ported heads ( I'm almost positive you can do it with cast iron as long as you get the right castings, and not super rare ram air castings either ) with a nice roller cam. 500 horse should be easy, then spray it with your kit of choice. :thumbsup:


Of course a blower is hard to beat for visual appeal..... :D

[X]

Yeah you can't beat the look of a blower.
http://webpages.charter.net/sdumont5/Chad's%20Nova.jpg

[540Malibu]

small block.....:whip:

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
small block.....:whip: It's not anymore.... :cool2:

[X]

Did he finish that?

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by DaRam
Did he finish that? Not yet. But last time I saw it the blower was sitting on top of a 502 :cool2:

[X]

Yea I knew that much. I heard that a long time ago. Also heard he was going 6 speed. Is that right?

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by DaRam
Yea I knew that much. I heard that a long time ago. Also heard he was going 6 speed. Is that right? Not anymore, last I heard he was going with a turbo 400. He actually bought a bigger blower and didn't think the 6 speed would live very long. :cool2:

[X]

Ah ok. He could go Gear Vendor then if he wants overdrive.

[Igetlaidalot]

hey matt(or spence or anyone else), if you wouldnt mind (i know you love doin this shit anyway) could you put togethera few "packages" of different heads, cams, manifolds, with prices and approx power gains. a while ago when we were talkin about the edelbrock performer series, you thought i could get about 400-450 with their heads and intake manifold. but i need more power than that. if i can get a solid 500-550 all motor, that will be fine with me, and ill spray the rest.


im also rethinking my t56 decision and considering just going with a muncie. just for now at least, my friend just got an m21 for 200 bucks, and i was lookin at almost a grand more than that for the t56. no it wouldnt have the overdrive that i want, and it wouldnt be as cool as the 6 speed, but that can come later. i figure if i just do the regular swap with an standard tranny, ill just need bellhousing, flywheel, clutch, tranny, pedal, cables, shifter, linkage and other random little things. but that is potentially all for somewhere around 1200, instead of like 2300 i needed for parts with the t56. money is tight this winter, and i definitely want to get in a stick, and later swappin out just the tranny (and bellhousing too) wouldnt be too big of a deal to do when i had the cash. im tryin to free up some mroe cash for motor work.

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by Igetlaidalot
hey matt(or spence or anyone else), if you wouldnt mind (i know you love doin this shit anyway) could you put togethera few "packages" of different heads, cams, manifolds, with prices and approx power gains. a while ago when we were talkin about the edelbrock performer series, you thought i could get about 400-450 with their heads and intake manifold. but i need more power than that. if i can get a solid 500-550 all motor, that will be fine with me, and ill spray the rest.


im also rethinking my t56 decision and considering just going with a muncie. just for now at least, my friend just got an m21 for 200 bucks, and i was lookin at almost a grand more than that for the t56. no it wouldnt have the overdrive that i want, and it wouldnt be as cool as the 6 speed, but that can come later. i figure if i just do the regular swap with an standard tranny, ill just need bellhousing, flywheel, clutch, tranny, pedal, cables, shifter, linkage and other random little things. but that is potentially all for somewhere around 1200, instead of like 2300 i needed for parts with the t56. money is tight this winter, and i definitely want to get in a stick, and later swappin out just the tranny (and bellhousing too) wouldnt be too big of a deal to do when i had the cash. im tryin to free up some mroe cash for motor work. Can't say I blame you there Pat. It's nice to want but realizing what you can afford is the hard part.
As far as packages, call this guy. Tell him what you want and be honest. I've called all the big name pontiac guys and I like him the best. I know he's helped me out. :cool2: Ask for Jeff.


740 599-5000
Kauffman Racing Equipment
22280 Temple RD
Glenmont, OH 44628

[Dee]

:cheers: all mercedes kompressor cars
are my favorite

[GoogleBot]

:cheers:
are my favorite



COULD YOU JUST PLEASE DIE AND DO US A FAVOR BY DOING IT ? I HAVE TO RUMMAGE THROUGH YOUR DUMB POSTS AND FINNALY THINK I FOUND SOMETHING INTERESTING AND BAM YOU COME OUT AND WHORE THE THREAD UP . DON'T YOU HAVE SOME LITTLE KIDS TO GO TRY AND PICK UP ?

[Dee]

COULD YOU JUST PLEASE DIE AND DO US A FAVOR BY DOING IT ? I HAVE TO RUMMAGE THROUGH YOUR DUMB POSTS AND FINNALY THINK I FOUND SOMETHING INTERESTING AND BAM YOU COME OUT AND WHORE THE THREAD UP . DON'T YOU HAVE SOME LITTLE KIDS TO GO TRY AND PICK UP ?
don't like it? leave. you're pathetic comments about me get you nowhere.