Help me with my future WS6 motor

[Feral]

I posted this exact same thing on CamaroZ28 ... but I am looking for as many opinions as I can get.

"Alright let me preface this by saying this will be my first foray into the domestic performance world, but I'm looking for some help. I've done a decent amount of research and have done some searches at this site, but I haven't come up with much on my own so I am hoping to tap into the experience of this forum.

I have the following goals/limitations for the SBC I intend to put into a '98+ WS6.

#1. 1000+ HP (on pump gas if at all possible)
#2. Fair longevity. I would like the motor to see 20,000 miles.
#3. Reliability. I want the engine to be as bulletproof as physically (and financially) possible for that HP level. I am thinking if the engine can be built to support 1500HP and I can afford it I will do it.
#4. Streetability. This car will never see a trailer if I can help it. I intend to drive it to and from the track.
#5. Fuel Injection. I am not a carb fan.

I've got about $15,000-$20,000 for motor + fuel system + induction system. I am not an engine builder so I will have to pay someone to put it together ... but I can do the install and tuning myself.

What I need to know.

Is this feasible?

What CI should I shoot for and in what aftermarket block?

What power adder should I use? I would prefer a centrifugal over turbos ... but I am not sure if I can hit this on pump gas with anything other than turbos.

Can I sneak this under the WS6 hood? I want the car to look as stock as possible from the outside.

What considerations am I not taking into account?"

[H3llphyre]

Well, there was an ImpalaSS in last months hotrod that made 960hp on pump gas and almost 1100hp on race gas, using a SBC and twin turbos.

Your best and easier route to go for power out of a SBC is to get some extra cubes out of the motor. Maybe go for a low 400 cube motor. I haven't seen too many pumpgas 1000+hp SBC's running on CF blowers, mostly turbos. This is mainly out of lack of research. Lemme look a few things up.

[SLP IROC-Z]

twin turbo el es juan... sleeved, 427 ci, heheh. sorry i was just dreamin...

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Well, there was an ImpalaSS in last months hotrod that made 960hp on pump gas and almost 1100hp on race gas, using a SBC and twin turbos.

Your best and easier route to go for power out of a SBC is to get some extra cubes out of the motor. Maybe go for a low 400 cube motor. I haven't seen too many pumpgas 1000+hp SBC's running on CF blowers, mostly turbos. This is mainly out of lack of research. Lemme look a few things up.

I am almost positive I am going no less than 427 CI. I am just not sure what size I can get aftermarket blocks at ... I would rather not be boring it out if I can avoid it.

[Feral]

Originally posted by SLP IROC-Z
twin turbo el es juan... sleeved, 427 ci, heheh. sorry i was just dreamin...

An LS1 would never hold the power I want. My block will probably have to be cast iron and heat treated.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
I am almost positive I am going no less than 427 CI. I am just not sure what size I can get aftermarket blocks at ... I would rather not be boring it out if I can avoid it.

You will have to go with an aftermarket block, which more or less means you have to go with an older gen SBC. This means you will have to build an aftermarket EFI setup. There are no LT1 or LS1 aftermarket blocks that will handle the type of power you want to make.

If you plan on going 400+ cubes, you WILL be boring the engine. The other option is to keep it low cubes (stock) and boost the shit out of it. You are going to easily be putting about $10K into the motor alone, maybe a little more if you want to make it bullet proof (kind of a misconception, as nothing it bullet proof).

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
You will have to go with an aftermarket block, which more or less means you have to go with an older gen SBC. This means you will have to build an aftermarket EFI setup. There are no LT1 or LS1 aftermarket blocks that will handle the type of power you want to make.

If you plan on going 400+ cubes, you WILL be boring the engine. The other option is to keep it low cubes (stock) and boost the shit out of it. You are going to easily be putting about $10K into the motor alone, maybe a little more if you want to make it bullet proof (kind of a misconception, as nothing it bullet proof).

Like I said in the post $15k-$20k. There are plenty of excellent aftermarket EFI systems out there ...

I was thinking about how far 400CI could get me.

What I was thinking is if I make it a revvable engine ... like 8k ... then I might be able to squeeze more HP out of it. If I can make 800 ft-lbs at 7500rpms that's just shy of 1200HP ... which is what I am looking for. I don't think that is possible with the word "reliable" anywhere near it ... but hell what do I know.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Like I said in the post $15k-$20k. There are plenty of excellent aftermarket EFI systems out there ...

Yeah, like GM's ramjet system... It's about $2000. Includes injectors, fuel rail, intake, TB, sensors, and computer.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Yeah, like GM's ramjet system... It's about $2000. Includes injectors, fuel rail, intake, TB, sensors, and computer. Yup ... exactly what I was thinking.

[H3llphyre]

Okay, checked out a few things... found a preassembled longblock for a blower motor (you don't have to use the blower) that is built for about 750 with a BDS blower (roots). The longblock is $6175 to give you a rough idea of price range. This is from the same guy that Timmy was talking to about a 400hp LT1.

Anyway, here are the specs (its a 383)


- GM 4 BOLT SPLAYED CAP BLOCK "O" RINGED, FULLY PREP'D & CLEARANCED
-4340 FORGED 3.75 STROKER CRANK, NITRIDE HARDENED & FULLY PREP'D
-4340 FORGED H-BEAM RODS
-JE FORGED BLOWER PISTONS RADIUS TOOLED, HIGH SILICON ALLOY
-TOTAL SEAL BLOWER RING SET
-CLEVITE H-SERIES ROD & MAIN BEARINGS
-INTERNALLY BALANCED TO WITHIN 1/2 GRAM
- DART PRO-1 ALUM. HEADS, 230cc RUNNERS, 2.08"/ 1.60" VALVES, 7/16 SCREW-IN-STUDS
-DART ROCKER ARM GIRDLE
-COMP. CAMS STEEL PRO-MAGNUM ROCKER ARMS, 1.6 RATIO
-ARP HEAD STUDS.....FEL-PRO GASKETS
-CLOYES TORRINGTON DBL ROLLER TIMING SET
-MANLEY 4130 HEAT TREATED PUSHRODS
-COMP. CAMS BLOWER SOLID ROLLER CAM .613" LIFT, 255°/262° DUR.@ .050, 300°/308° ADV. DUR.114° L/C
- EXPERT BLUEPRINT ASSEMBLY
-FREE SHIPPING


Free shipping too. Granted, that cam won't make the car overly streetable. But, this company has been in business for a LONG LONG time. They are one of the cheaper places I have found and can build WHATEVER you want. Its pretty much cheaper to go through them and ordering a longblock then buying all the parts yourself and building it yourself. Gotta love dealing in mass quantities of parts.

[H3llphyre]

OR, you could go with a 400ci motor and either stroke or destroke that. Looking at a tad more money, but not much.
They have up to 481CI motors....

[Feral]

I was looking at AFR 215RR heads ... they're pretty ill.

Its a LOT cheaper to make 700-800 of out of a SBC than to make 1000-1200. Like half the price ... arg.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
I was looking at AFR 215RR heads ... they're pretty ill.

Its a LOT cheaper to make 700-800 of out of a SBC than to make 1000-1200. Like half the price ... arg.

All depends. For a VERY strong shortblock, you are looking at around the price I listed above. At most, you will spend about $5K for the shortblock.

In terms of heads, this depends on how big you want to go. I would personally go with bigger heads then the 215's on a 1000hp motor. The dart 230's list above are WAY better then the 215's. Do a lot of research into heads. There are a LOT of AFR fanboys out there, mainly because I don't think dart makes heads for LT1 or LS1's. I could be wrong about the LS1, but I know for sure with the LT1. So, therefor, a lot of LT/S1 boys won't even speak of darts.

[Feral]

I know nothing about heads. I have been reading about motown 427 SBC's though ... they've got some seriously thick cylinder walls with a 4.2" bore. Only $2k ... fucking not bad at all.

[Feral]

Of course the more I think about this the more I realize this HAS to be a turbo car ... god damnit I fucking like superchargers.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Of course the more I think about this the more I realize this HAS to be a turbo car ... god damnit I fucking like superchargers.

If you want big power, you gotta go turbos.

[H3llphyre]

Looking at the impala crowd, there is a procharger LT1 making 680hp to the wheels and a twin turbo car making 960hp to the wheels. I am thinking turbo is the way to go. All of the BIG power streetable SBC cars are going turbo. The supercharger crowd seems to top out around 800-900HP, while the turbo guys are making up to 1400hp on race gas. 1000hp on pump isn't impossible, there are quite a few people doing it.

[malibu81]

I have done alittle research into big horse small blocks because I am thinking of starting something next winter. If I was you I would start with a dart little m block. You could take those out to 454ci. I think I am going to stay around 420 though with a short stroke to get some rpms out of it. You will want to get both main and head studs and maybe billet main caps. Get a good 4340 crank and rods and some JE pistons, with some good bearings and rings you should have a stout bottom end.

The AFR 215 head are raised runners which are good, but you might want to look for some 18 degree heads. I would check dart and brodix for those type of castings. If you want to stay with the 23 degree the AFR would be good due to the 3/4 inch thick deck. Remember with these type of heads you need a whole different valve train, not just standard sbc.

The cam hellphyre was talking about wouldn't be to bad, mine is bigger then that and I am NA with less ci. My motor with the AFR 210s is done around 7000 rpms, and I have tried it as high as 8000. I would call cammotion and get a recommendation from them.

I have no idea about FI, or boosted applications so I can't be any help there. For a fuel pump you might want to look at a magnaflow quickstar 500, I have a 300 and it hasn't given me any problems on the street. The guy that won quickstreet last year runs 1 500 to feed a 540ci chevy with 2 stages.

[Feral]

Originally posted by malibu81
I have done alittle research into big horse small blocks because I am thinking of starting something next winter. If I was you I would start with a dart little m block. You could take those out to 454ci. I think I am going to stay around 420 though with a short stroke to get some rpms out of it. You will want to get both main and head studs and maybe billet main caps. Get a good 4340 crank and rods and some JE pistons, with some good bearings and rings you should have a stout bottom end.

The AFR 215 head are raised runners which are good, but you might want to look for some 18 degree heads. I would check dart and brodix for those type of castings. If you want to stay with the 23 degree the AFR would be good due to the 3/4 inch thick deck. Remember with these type of heads you need a whole different valve train, not just standard sbc.

The cam hellphyre was talking about wouldn't be to bad, mine is bigger then that and I am NA with less ci. My motor with the AFR 210s is done around 7000 rpms, and I have tried it as high as 8000. I would call cammotion and get a recommendation from them.

I have no idea about FI, or boosted applications so I can't be any help there. For a fuel pump you might want to look at a magnaflow quickstar 500, I have a 300 and it hasn't given me any problems on the street. The guy that won quickstreet last year runs 1 500 to feed a 540ci chevy with 2 stages.

Awesome ... thanks a bunch for the info. This is exactly what I need.

I was indeed thinking of keeping the CI's down so I could gain some revs. There is some point out there where I will get more HP out of revs than CI's ... I know I'm not qualified to say where that is ... but I know it's somewhere in there. Maybe a 400 that hits 8000 will make better power than a 454 that hits 7000. I don't know.

The FI and the boost scares me the least, as these are the areas I am most familiar with. This car will be running a stand alone ECU that I'll be tuning myself. I would have it no other way. Probably 8 100lb injectors ... that'll support 1100-1200HP running 50psi ... all I need for excellent atomization and easy tuning.

Cam ... at least to my knowledge ... are easy on a boosted motor ... or so I'm told. Apparently there is one Supercharger cam and one Turbo cam that everyone uses ... not like the N/A or N20 world. Again ... this is hearsay ... guess I should do some more hearing and less saying at this point.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Cam ... at least to my knowledge ... are easy on a boosted motor ... or so I'm told. Apparently there is one Supercharger cam and one Turbo cam that everyone uses ... not like the N/A or N20 world. Again ... this is hearsay ... guess I should do some more hearing and less saying at this point.

Its hearsay... You can call Comp when you are ready and they should be able to tell you what you will need for a cam based on the parts you plan on using. Also, you may want to give Dart and AFR a call... They can point you to which head would be best for your application.

Personally, I would go with a 400 block and keep it around that cubes. It SHOULD be enough to make around 1000hp.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by malibu81
I have done alittle research into big horse small blocks because I am thinking of starting something next winter. If I was you I would start with a dart little m block. You could take those out to 454ci. I think I am going to stay around 420 though with a short stroke to get some rpms out of it. You will want to get both main and head studs and maybe billet main caps. Get a good 4340 crank and rods and some JE pistons, with some good bearings and rings you should have a stout bottom end.

The AFR 215 head are raised runners which are good, but you might want to look for some 18 degree heads. I would check dart and brodix for those type of castings. If you want to stay with the 23 degree the AFR would be good due to the 3/4 inch thick deck. Remember with these type of heads you need a whole different valve train, not just standard sbc.

The cam hellphyre was talking about wouldn't be to bad, mine is bigger then that and I am NA with less ci. My motor with the AFR 210s is done around 7000 rpms, and I have tried it as high as 8000. I would call cammotion and get a recommendation from them.

I have no idea about FI, or boosted applications so I can't be any help there. For a fuel pump you might want to look at a magnaflow quickstar 500, I have a 300 and it hasn't given me any problems on the street. The guy that won quickstreet last year runs 1 500 to feed a 540ci chevy with 2 stages.

Looks as though the HIGH horsepower motors are using the 18 degree heads.

kurtis... Found a company who builds smallblock twin turbo motors. here is the general info....

Dart aftermarket tall block (396)
custom heads. (will find more info)
20psi of boost
8.75:1 compression ratio.


1200hp.


With the 427ci motor, they are making 1600hp with 35psi.

[H3llphyre]

You MAY want to consider this....


http://www.bankspower.com/twin-turbo-engine.cfm


It may be just easier to buy a whole package, not not THAT much more expensive. Something to consider. Engine comes with a dyno chart...

[MadMalibu71]

With that 400 inmind.. I highly suggest getting the BEST rods you can go with.. I went with a 5.7 with my 400, stock they're about a 5.5.. the 5.7 or you may even wanna look into the 6.0inch rods.. that is one of the 400's weakest points.. Im using SCAT's 4340 I beam's.. and make sure you get them with cap-screws, not wav-loc bolts, as i learned.. because My rods needed to be machines to clear the cam, and i guess the only way they can do that is, if you ahve the cap-screw style rods..

If you going to stroke it to a 427 or even a 415ci, i highly suggest a new block.. I wanted to stroke mine, but with it already being bored over once... Just didnt wanna risk blowing it... I'm not trying to build a grenade here.. :)

Just my .02cents

[TunedPort 335]

Go with the longest rods possible (keeps piston speed down, good for high RPM motors). Don't go with that gay RamJet intake, I don't even think you can really tune all that much since its Edelbrocks own computer setup and shit

If I were you, I'd be going for something more like a Hogans sheetmetal intake.

[H3llphyre]

I'd go with this personally....

http://www.bankspower.com/Twin-Turbo-images/TTurbo-frontleftquarte.jpg

[WETDRM]

hogan can make an intake for anything...and the amount of power your talking about the ramjet would be way to small.

[WETDRM]

http://www.hogansracingmanifolds.com/

[malibu81]

The 400 block is tough to cool because there are no water passages between the cylinders. Also an aftermarket block will be stronger and better oiling.

When you go for a long rod doesn't that push the wrist pin up higher in the piston. And doesn't that make the piston weaker. Like hellphyre said call everybody before you do anything.

I forgot you might want to go with cometic head gaskets, they are supposed to be able to seal anything. The website is www.cometic.com. If you get these you shouldn't need to o-ring the block. I am getting a set this year, we'll see how they do.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by GT200MPH
hogan can make an intake for anything...and the amount of power your talking about the ramjet would be way to small.

Um, did you bother checking out the prices.... I would rather use an LS1 intake with nitrous.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by malibu81
The 400 block is tough to cool because there are no water passages between the cylinders. Also an aftermarket block will be stronger and better oiling.

When you go for a long rod doesn't that push the wrist pin up higher in the piston. And doesn't that make the piston weaker. Like hellphyre said call everybody before you do anything.

I forgot you might want to go with cometic head gaskets, they are supposed to be able to seal anything. The website is www.cometic.com. If you get these you shouldn't need to o-ring the block. I am getting a set this year, we'll see how they do.

I think he is better off with an aftermarket block anyway... Like one of the Dart Iron Eagle Tall blocks.

[H3llphyre]

Oh yeah.... I wanted to add one more thing....

Kurtis, don't be a fanboy and buy a WS6. It will be MUCH cheaper to buy a V6 firebird and buy the hood and wing. You aren't using the motor anyway. A V6 firebird will cost you like $3000, as opposed to spending well over $10,000 for a WS6.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Oh yeah.... I wanted to add one more thing....

Kurtis, don't be a fanboy and buy a WS6. It will be MUCH cheaper to buy a V6 firebird and buy the hood and wing. You aren't using the motor anyway. A V6 firebird will cost you like $3000, as opposed to spending well over $10,000 for a WS6.

Nope I'm buying a WS6. I will be driving around the LS1 for a year or so anyhow while I build up this motor so I'm getting the WS6 experience :D

[WETDRM]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Um, did you bother checking out the prices.... I would rather use an LS1 intake with nitrous.

well you cant build a 1000 horse power car with $5 dollar parts.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Nope I'm buying a WS6. I will be driving around the LS1 for a year or so anyhow while I build up this motor so I'm getting the WS6 experience :D

fanboy! haha, kidding.

I didn't know you were planning on driving it around for a while. You know, it would make more sense to build a motor NOW, then buy the car to put it in. Its not like you couldn't change your mind and put a SBC making 1000hp into something else if you changed your mind.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by GT200MPH
well you cant build a 1000 horse power car with $5 dollar parts.

You can however get away with NOT spending $2500 on an intake. Sorry, thats too expensive. half the cost of the shortblock, for a welded piece of aluminum.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
I am almost positive I am going no less than 427 CI. I am just not sure what size I can get aftermarket blocks at ... I would rather not be boring it out if I can avoid it.

going anything over a 406 aftermarket block, is going to cost you serious dollars in order for it to live, the piston speed and rod angle with the 427's + is goign to require THE BEST crank and rods whioch will add about 3k more to the short block.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
going anything over a 406 aftermarket block, is going to cost you serious dollars in order for it to live, the piston speed and rod angle with the 427's + is goign to require THE BEST crank and rods whioch will add about 3k more to the short block.
What about the dart tall blocks? Aren't those 400 blocks to start? Does it make much of a difference?
I know some places destroke the 400's to 377... I am assuming to alleviate this problem you speak of.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
What about the dart tall blocks? Aren't those 400 blocks to start? Does it make much of a difference?
I know some places destroke the 400's to 377... I am assuming to alleviate this problem you speak of.

that solves the problem with a stock block and cheap parts. the part that hurts the motor is the 9" deck height, going to a tall block is going cost lots extra in supporting components.

[Superskwrl]

I would build a 330-350ci motor with AFR 227's @ least, there is a replacement for displacement its called boost

I like to talk in rwhp rather than flywheel because i have seen stuff make a ton of power on the engine dyno then u put them in the car and they are down 250+hp @ the wheels:eh:

I would run a turbo i peronally

I think most of the vechiles that make a ton of power on pump gas are not reality and are VERY scienced out mega $$ motors

I think the ramjet gutted would be fine, i would run a FAST/AEM/Gen7+

A weldon 2025 pump+regulator, 72's

If you have 15k-20k i would just buy something done,let some1 else take the financial hit

Dont forget about the tranny,rearend,suspension cage etc

I am on the fence myself to go automatic or not, it would cost 2500-3000 for a nice 5spd setup, for the same $$ i cold go to a decent auto and not break as much stuff and not look like an idiot because i cant drive

They make turbo kits for those cars:worship2:

I'm sure rob 96z28ss will be knowledgeable about this subject

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Superskwrl
I would build a 330-350ci motor with AFR 227's @ least, there is a replacement for displacement its called boost

I like to talk in rwhp rather than flywheel because i have seen stuff make a ton of power on the engine dyno then u put them in the car and they are down 250+hp @ the wheels:eh:

I would run a turbo i peronally

I think most of the vechiles that make a ton of power on pump gas are not reality and are VERY scienced out mega $$ motors

I think the ramjet gutted would be fine, i would run a FAST/AEM/Gen7+

A weldon 2025 pump+regulator, 72's

If you have 15k-20k i would just buy something done,let some1 else take the financial hit

Dont forget about the tranny,rearend,suspension cage etc

I am on the fence myself to go automatic or not, it would cost 2500-3000 for a nice 5spd setup, for the same $$ i cold go to a decent auto and not break as much stuff and not look like an idiot because i cant drive

They make turbo kits for those cars:worship2:

I'm sure rob 96z28ss will be knowledgeable about this subject

In thinking more about this, what really is the difference between a well built 350 and a well built 400 motor? About 2psi? I think the cube difference could be made up with boost, and not a lot to boot.

I definately think an aftermarket block is necessary for the amount of power being put into it, if he wants to keep from splitting the block in two. It SHOULD be doable for within his price range.

In terms of trannies, I tend to think a T-56 should be able to handle about 1000hp, as the LPE vette uses one. Granted, it will need a LITTLE attention and a $1000 clutch flywheel setup, but it should be okay. He is overly against an auto, so thats not an option.

[Superskwrl]

IMO they dont make a head/intake combo that flows enough air to efficienty use a 400+ ci motor for the sbc, a ford for example u can have a head with 185cc intake runner and it will flow 280@ 600 u need a 210+cc head for an SBC to do the same, thats why i said a 227+

If you look @ the mustang stuff, the guys go 180 with 350 ci motors, and a local example is smitty TPI305, he goes near 140 @3600lbs? thats like 6/700rwhp with a 305 and a stock style intake, imo to do a big sbc u need a 18/15 degree head which wont work on the street, the lifters alone are like 2k for the nice 1's

[Feral]

wow ... thanks for the replies.

First of all I am not concerned about the drivetrain. There are quite a few boys over at camaroz28 running 1000RWHP through a T56 ... albeit they build them up and don't powershift. This is fine for me ... this isn't a drag car so that'll work for my needs. I will probably rebuild the tranny every 2 years but a refresh isn't that expensive.

Second of all this is a boosted application so if they heads don't flow perfect that's ok as well. The heads I've been looking at have all been flowing plenty enough ... I won't get much pressure drop.

I am almost positive this will be twin turbo now. I want to be able to turn the boost OFF so the car will be somewhat civil to drive and then with a flip of the switch have full power. I can't do that with a blower.

I am pretty much sold on an aftermarket 400CI block. That's a 14% displacement bump from a 350 and the total cost for the extra parts would be about $1000 ... within my budget. I am thinking I want the bore to be 4" even ... so I have a choice of taking a 415CI displacement or destroking it back down to almost 400CI. At this point the destroking idea sound right for a high revving motor and this will reduce strain ... as Spencer pointed out I can't afford to be banging those walls with this kind of force.

My question now though is what kind of valvetrain options do I have for longevity upstairs? The block problem is solved ... I am not concerned what kind of valvetrain options do I have so that I don't have to rebuild my heads every year? I am thinking this will need an 8000rpm redline ... maybe a little higher but I would like peak power at about 7500rpms. To me that sounds high for desiring longevity. I am just aiming for 700 ft-lbs at 7500rpms. That will get me over the 1000HP mark. I realize this might not happen on pump gas at this point. Oh well ... if it's a turbo the pump/race gas distinction isn't as big of a deal anymore anyhow because I can just have my computer with a pump gas and a race gas setting.

[Superskwrl]

I'm a lil confused on the 400ci block thing, a stock 400 bore i think is 4.125 vs 4.0 of the 350, i think the 400s all seem to run hot even the aftermarket 1's because the cylinders are so thin in comparisson to a 350 and they are siamesed.
i had inquired about building a 4.125 bore 3" stroke sbf and every1 i asked said it wouldn't work on the street because of the larger bore and its associated problems

a 1000rwhp is a lot of power, and i have NEVER seen a street car with more that 750, again i'm hoping rob 96z28ss will chime in and can attest to the # of 1000rwhp cars out there,nerve mind street cars

The valve train will not last if you run a big cam/solid roller.

Dont get swayed by the whole big V8 thing,effienecy is still the name of the game.
1 of the record holders in the mustang stuff where 410ci N20 combos are legal runs a 280ci sbf and makes over 800rwhp with and auto

Good luck

[Feral]

Originally posted by Superskwrl
I'm a lil confused on the 400ci block thing, a stock 400 bore i think is 4.125 vs 4.0 of the 350, i think the 400s all seem to run hot even the aftermarket 1's because the cylinders are so thin in comparisson to a 350 and they are siamesed.
i had inquired about building a 4.125 bore 3" stroke sbf and every1 i asked said it wouldn't work on the street because of the larger bore and its associated problems

a 1000rwhp is a lot of power, and i have NEVER seen a street car with more that 750, again i'm hoping rob 96z28ss will chime in and can attest to the # of 1000rwhp cars out there,nerve mind street cars

The valve train will not last if you run a big cam/solid roller.

Dont get swayed by the whole big V8 thing,effienecy is still the name of the game.
1 of the record holders in the mustang stuff where 410ci N20 combos are legal runs a 280ci sbf and makes over 800rwhp with and auto

Good luck

The 415 is 4 x 3.875-inch. I think a stock 350 is 3.75 x 3.75 (no idea). A 400 with a 4 inch bore would be 4 x 3.75 (or so). Again just guestimates. Spencer probably knows the exact dimensions.

The aftermarket 400's all have thicker walls and better cooling than a stock 350. They are also all cast iron which is what I'll need to hold these power levels. I'll slap a huge fucking cooling system on the car probably ... I am not concerned about the cooling so much.

You are right ... efficiency is the name of the game but my goals are really fucking high at this point so I need to consider them still. If in the end the money is just too much then I'll cut them down. There are incredibly few 1000RWHP street cars ... which is all the more reason for me to want one :D

[Superskwrl]

Originally posted by Feral
The aftermarket 400's all have thicker walls and better cooling than a stock 350. They are also all cast iron which is what I'll need to hold these power levels. I'll slap a huge fucking cooling system on the car probably ... I am not concerned about the cooling so much.



Your right everything is thick but the outside dimensions of the block are still like a stock block, keep that in mind.

As for cooling, we're not talkin about a 66chevelle with a big grill etc and room for everything under the sun, we're talkin about a late model with lil to no grill and a 4" thick intercooler blocking the almost entire thing and all this is gonna get fresh air from the lil plastic air dam underneath,i havent even mentioned the A/C condensor or the heat the turbo system will generate and the fact a cowl hood doesn't help on those cars cause 1/4 of the motor is under the windshield/cowl

My car has a small intercooler that blocks the radiator and it has gotten hot although a better fan has just about cured it

[Feral]

Originally posted by Superskwrl
Your right everything is thick but the outside dimensions of the block are still like a stock block, keep that in mind.

As for cooling, we're not talkin about a 66chevelle with a big grill etc and room for everything under the sun, we're talkin about a late model with lil to no grill and a 4" thick intercooler blocking the almost entire thing and all this is gonna get fresh air from the lil plastic air dam underneath,i havent even mentioned the A/C condensor or the heat the turbo system will generate and the fact a cowl hood doesn't help on those cars cause 1/4 of the motor is under the windshield/cowl

My car has a small intercooler that blocks the radiator and it has gotten hot although a better fan has just about cured it

Well I am considering an electric water pump and an aftermarket aluminum radiator with a nice pair of fans on it. You have to remember I am used to an engine bay so cramped that it would take water poured on the intake 2 minutes to finally hit the ground.

[X]

Feral, checkout this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2465029380&category=6427) car.

[383BackInBlack]

AFR is the only company that has an aftermarket ls1 head so far.....and it hasnt been released yet.

secondly, you dont want the the 215, youd be better off with the 227cc race head with the full competition CNC port job.

in a boosted application your not gonna be as worried about port velocity, but you want it to flow like a mofo......so the bigger ports win

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
AFR is the only company that has an aftermarket ls1 head so far.....and it hasnt been released yet.

secondly, you dont want the the 215, youd be better off with the 227cc race head with the full competition CNC port job.

in a boosted application your not gonna be as worried about port velocity, but you want it to flow like a mofo......so the bigger ports win :stupid:

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
The 415 is 4 x 3.875-inch. I think a stock 350 is 3.75 x 3.75 (no idea). A 400 with a 4 inch bore would be 4 x 3.75 (or so). Again just guestimates. Spencer probably knows the exact dimensions.

The aftermarket 400's all have thicker walls and better cooling than a stock 350. They are also all cast iron which is what I'll need to hold these power levels. I'll slap a huge fucking cooling system on the car probably ... I am not concerned about the cooling so much.

You are right ... efficiency is the name of the game but my goals are really fucking high at this point so I need to consider them still. If in the end the money is just too much then I'll cut them down. There are incredibly few 1000RWHP street cars ... which is all the more reason for me to want one :D

415 = 4.125x3.875..... 400=4.125x3.75....... 383 = 4.030x 3.75 ......427 = 4.155x4.00 .....350=4.0x3.48

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
AFR is the only company that has an aftermarket ls1 head so far.....and it hasnt been released yet.

secondly, you dont want the the 215, youd be better off with the 227cc race head with the full competition CNC port job.

in a boosted application your not gonna be as worried about port velocity, but you want it to flow like a mofo......so the bigger ports win

not so, its actually the other way around, boosted you want high velocity beacause the air is pressureized so there is two times the air moving through the runners at 14.7psi, you want the pressurized air to move into the cylinders as fast as possible to make sure the cylinder is full.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
not so, its actually the other way around, boosted you want high velocity beacause the air is pressureized so there is two times the air moving through the runners at 14.7psi, you want the pressurized air to move into the cylinders as fast as possible to make sure the cylinder is full.

Right ... shortest runner design you can get is best for a boosted application ...

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Right ... shortest runner design you can get is best for a boosted application ...

AFR 180's, ported with gigantic valves.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
AFR 180's, ported with gigantic valves.

Right ... in a boosted application you might as well go with the biggest flowing heads you can ... since the pressure will pretty much nullify any effect specialized heads/intake designs will give you anyhow. I mean an awesome engine/head builder can achieve 110% VE with some N/A supercharging effect ... well with a turbo or S/C I can easily achieve double that ... lol ... with brute force.

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by Feral
Right ... in a boosted application you might as well go with the biggest flowing heads you can ... since the pressure will pretty much nullify any effect specialized heads/intake designs will give you anyhow. I mean an awesome engine/head builder can achieve 110% VE with some N/A supercharging effect ... well with a turbo or S/C I can easily achieve double that ... lol ... with brute force.

ya like i said, the 227cc race heads.

and the port velocity on those is most likely alot better than the dart 230's anyways.

so you win twice.

but there is no way in hell a 180cc head could flow enough to make 1000hp.....not in its wetest dream

for blocks, you can look at dart little M's, bowtie blocks, donovan makes them now i think, world products makes some good blocks......i think rodeck might have a small block casting as well.....none are cheap

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
but there is no way in hell a 180cc head could flow enough to make 1000hp.....not in its wetest dream

Isn't it the valve size that dictates the flow rate of the head? Inform me, cuz there is a GOOD chance I am wrong.

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Isn't it the valve size that dictates the flow rate of the head? Inform me, cuz there is a GOOD chance I am wrong.


nope its the size and design of the intake ports and exhaust ports respectively that determine the CFM for each.....at least the way they are rated.

another thing to consider when looking at head flow numbers is that almost every aftermarket head flow figure is determined on a Superflow flow bench, except for AFR....they use a different type of flow bench that is supposed to be a closer approximation.

the kicker here is the superflow design reads about 12-15% higher than the competing type.......so when AFR's flow numbers are way better than everyone elses, its actually more so than outward appearance would dictate.

because the other heads that come close, if flowed on the same bench with the AFR heads, would be another 12% or so in the hole......and still have a tough time matching the port velocity (which is what makes them such a popular street head)

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
nope its the size and design of the intake ports and exhaust ports respectively that determine the CFM for each.....at least the way they are rated.

another thing to consider when looking at head flow numbers is that almost every aftermarket head flow figure is determined on a Superflow flow bench, except for AFR....they use a different type of flow bench that is supposed to be a closer approximation.

the kicker here is the superflow design reads about 12-15% higher than the competing type.......so when AFR's flow numbers are way better than everyone elses, its actually more so than outward appearance would dictate.

because the other heads that come close, if flowed on the same bench with the AFR heads, would be another 12% or so in the hole......and still have a tough time matching the port velocity (which is what makes them such a popular street head)

Now, something I don't quite understand (cuz I am too lazy to read up on it), is the intake port volume... Is this just purely the runner length, or the diameter of the runner as well? (hmm, me thinks that runner isn't the right word for the head). Port velocity doesn't mean as much with FI, because the air is being FORCED in there... Moot point. I just figured that gigantic valves on a small volumed head on an FI head would flow just the same.

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Now, something I don't quite understand (cuz I am too lazy to read up on it), is the intake port volume... Is this just purely the runner length, or the diameter of the runner as well? (hmm, me thinks that runner isn't the right word for the head). Port velocity doesn't mean as much with FI, because the air is being FORCED in there... Moot point. I just figured that gigantic valves on a small volumed head on an FI head would flow just the same.

the port volume is just that......they seal the port off, and fill it with fluid, and then measure the fluid to obtain the volume....i.e. 227cc's

people use the term port and runner interchangeably and thats fine really as long as you know what your getting at.

so the size of the port is directly related to how much air it can flow

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
so the size of the port is directly related to how much air it can flow

Well, not if the volume is created from the same diameter and just a longer tract... That's what I was curious about.

[96Z28SS]

Let me get this straight.

You want a 1000 hp motor or 1000rwhp and it has to be on pump gas 93 octane?

And you want it to be in a late model firebird, and be streetable.

Can you please define what your version of streetable is?

$15 to $20k isn't enough to get the car running.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 96Z28SS
Let me get this straight.

You want a 1000 hp motor or 1000rwhp and it has to be on pump gas 93 octane?

And you want it to be in a late model firebird, and be streetable.

Can you please define what your version of streetable is?

$15 to $20k isn't enough to get the car running.

lol. And I'd like a cherry on top as well :D

Streetable for me means it will idle under 1500rpms. Also if it is S/C'ed it will need a bypass valve and if turbo'd I'll run lower boost on the street and when not racing. Oh and it can't be tubbed.

The 1k on pump gas is a non-issue. 400ish cubes with 15-16psi should be right at that. Maybe not the RWHP ... but easily 1000 at the motor. 20psi will put 1000 at the rear wheels.

Making that reliable is. With the aftermarket blocks I'll get plenty of sidewall and cooling ... and if I can keep the revs down the crank will last and the sidewall pressures will stay in check. Pistons and rods can be made to withstand anything. Its pretty easy to force 1000HP worth of air into an engine. At that point it is kind of academic ... just making it all work together is the hard part.

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Well, not if the volume is created from the same diameter and just a longer tract... That's what I was curious about.

ok if we're gonna nit pick,

the flow is directly related to the size AND shape of the port

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
ok if we're gonna nit pick,

the flow is directly related to the size AND shape of the port

I know, what i want to know is, how does a 227 head compare to a 180 head in terms of the dimesions of the intake port? I am not trying to nit pick, I am trying to understand...

[96Z28SS]

okay here is an example of one that was at our shop.

402 SBC LT1 T-Trim 14psi with cog set up.
it made 840hp on 93 pump, with sunoco race gas it made 925hp
it was alot more than $15k to get it built and running.

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
I know, what i want to know is, how does a 227 head compare to a 180 head in terms of the dimesions of the intake port? I am not trying to nit pick, I am trying to understand...

the 180 port is a decent sized street head port......the 227 is a large by huge massive SBC intake port.

i have 210's and they are huge.....the 227 is a good size port......much bigger than the 180

big blocks are typically in the 300+cc range

[Feral]

Originally posted by 96Z28SS
okay here is an example of one that was at our shop.

402 SBC LT1 T-Trim 14psi with cog set up.
it made 840hp on 93 pump, with sunoco race gas it made 925hp
it was alot more than $15k to get it built and running.

Hmm ... well I'm looking at the shortblock for around $5-$6k. The heads/cam/valvetrain will be another $4k. The full EFI system will be $3k and the induction system (assuming it is a S/C) including the intercooler and piping is another $4k. That's kind of what I'm figuring. Maybe I'm just dreaming though.

[Superskwrl]

Originally posted by 96Z28SS
okay here is an example of one that was at our shop.

402 SBC LT1 T-Trim 14psi with cog set up.
it made 840hp on 93 pump, with sunoco race gas it made 925hp
it was alot more than $15k to get it built and running.

How much does it make @ the wheels?

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Hmm ... well I'm looking at the shortblock for around $5-$6k. The heads/cam/valvetrain will be another $4k. The full EFI system will be $3k and the induction system (assuming it is a S/C) including the intercooler and piping is another $4k. That's kind of what I'm figuring. Maybe I'm just dreaming though.

I think he was talking about drivetrain too.

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
I think he was talking about drivetrain too.


ya and the super impossible tuning that can only be done by the highly trained professionals at new england dyno......thats worth what, like 50k?

:smokin:

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
I think he was talking about drivetrain too. The drivetrain will be about $6-$7k. Then the chassis will be some decent money as well ... I am wondering how much beyond the cage I will need to keep it together.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
ya and the super impossible tuning that can only be done by the highly trained professionals at new england dyno......thats worth what, like 50k?

:smokin:

I'm the only person who twiddles knobs on my car. :thumbsup:

[96Z28SS]

383backinblack,
We aren't that expensive sheesh!

The engine from oil pan to assembled intake ( i mean fuel rails injectors throttlebody also you can't use a ramjet intake, your going to need more plenum volume. Custom intake more like it and that is going to cost at a min $1800 max $3k) is going to cost you more than 10k. Close to 15k more like it.

Now you have to add engine management and fuel system
3000 for F.A.S.T or Accel sequential system.
500 for good fuel pump
200 for regulator
750 for hose and fittings (yes I know I was shocked myself when I added it all up.)

Now you said twin turbo, so you need a new k-member to get this to all fit in the engine bay $400
New radiator and fans $700
I have no idea how much it would be in custom fab work to get intercooler and all the turbo components stuffed in there.

Late model firebird isn't the car to do this with.

Also is the turbo a kit or something custom made? cause if its custom made for the car the headers and exhaust will be over $2k

It s no where near cheap to get 1000hp on pump gas.

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by 96Z28SS
383backinblack,
We aren't that expensive sheesh!

The engine from oil pan to assembled intake ( i mean fuel rails injectors throttlebody also you can't use a ramjet intake, your going to need more plenum volume. Custom intake more like it and that is going to cost at a min $1800 max $3k) is going to cost you more than 10k. Close to 15k more like it.

Now you have to add engine management and fuel system
3000 for F.A.S.T or Accel sequential system.
500 for good fuel pump
200 for regulator
750 for hose and fittings (yes I know I was shocked myself when I added it all up.)

Now you said twin turbo, so you need a new k-member to get this to all fit in the engine bay $400
New radiator and fans $700
I have no idea how much it would be in custom fab work to get intercooler and all the turbo components stuffed in there.

Late model firebird isn't the car to do this with.

Also is the turbo a kit or something custom made? cause if its custom made for the car the headers and exhaust will be over $2k

It s no where near cheap to get 1000hp on pump gas.

kurtis, i think you need to talk to preston smith......im gonna try and get him on here in the near future.

he has one huge turbo in his 85 iroc, and it makes 900hp or so.

and there is more room under his hood than there is under mine.....so if someone knows how to do it, its him.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
kurtis, i think you need to talk to preston smith......im gonna try and get him on here in the near future.

he has one huge turbo in his 85 iroc, and it makes 900hp or so.

and there is more room under his hood than there is under mine.....so if someone knows how to do it, its him.

I am currently talking to a man by the name of Bret Bauer ... him and his father have participated in the Engine Master's engine builder competition before and are getting together an engine for 2004. They are in upstate NY. Regardless they know their shit.

[TunedPort 335]

Originally posted by Feral
I am currently talking to a man by the name of Bret Bauer ... him and his father have participated in the Engine Master's engine builder competition before and are getting together an engine for 2004. They are in upstate NY. Regardless they know their shit.

Ahh yes... they are basically the ones to talk to on camaroz28.com

[96Z28SS]

a 3rd gen Iroc and a 4th gen firebird is apple and oranges.

3rd gens have alot more room to work with.

Here is a thread showing what has to be done to the radiator support and stuff to make this work.
Its a 427 t88 turbo car

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135625

go to page 12 to see the pics in the car.


here is a link of a twin setup, http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146867

Notice that with a twin with the turbos in this location you need to get a k-member to get them to fit.

[96Z28SS]

Yeah Bret and his dad are very knowledgeable.
I have spoken with Bret on the board before.

They are straight up guys they will tell ya how much this will end up costing you.

[Superskwrl]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
kurtis, i think you need to talk to preston smith......im gonna try and get him on here in the near future.

he has one huge turbo in his 85 iroc, and it makes 900hp or so.

and there is more room under his hood than there is under mine.....so if someone knows how to do it, its him.

He has a T76 i believe, and custom tubes in billerica made the tubing/headers etc

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
kurtis, i think you need to talk to preston smith......im gonna try and get him on here in the near future. YES!!! Please do, more knowledgeable people is always a good thing :thumbsup:

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by bottledbird68
YES!!! Please do, more knowledgeable people is always a good thing :thumbsup: :stupid:

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by bottledbird68
YES!!! Please do, more knowledgeable people is always a good thing :thumbsup:


the thing about preston is he's such a reserved guy....if you go up and talk to him at the track or something he's more than happy to shoot the shit for as long as you want.....

but trying to get that guy to go to shows and on message boards is like pulling teeth

[Superskwrl]

Originally posted by 383BackInBlack
the thing about preston is he's such a reserved guy....if you go up and talk to him at the track or something he's more than happy to shoot the shit for as long as you want.....

but trying to get that guy to go to shows and on message boards is like pulling teeth


:stupid: and he certainly wouldn't want to argue with anyone online

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Superskwrl
:stupid: and he certainly wouldn't want to argue with anyone online
Its hard to argue with a guy that runs 9's. What are you gonna say? "Yeah, well, have you done it.... DOH"

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Its hard to argue with a guy that runs 9's. What are you gonna say? "Yeah, well, have you done it.... DOH"

lol i know a few people on here that will :smokin:

"well with twin turbos and huge intercoolers on this 4 cyl x9000 fire eagle motor......"
:thumbsup:


he does dislike morons and retards that say stupid shit to him all the time though lol......as we all do, but he gets it ALOT worse

[96Z28SS]

He is one of the nicest guys at the track.
He won't bullshit you either, ask him something he'll tell ya.
I was with a friend he was having trouble with the TCI tranny controler and Preston was willing to help.

I remember back in '96 when I bought my SS, I went to the track and was running 13.6 all day, and this guy with a 94 Firehawk was running 12.7's so since the cars are similar I asked him what he had done to the car and he said it was only headers and throttlebody, he was a dick head and didn't want to talk, well after talking to a few other people there he had cam and heads and a torque converter and a few other things.
Its not like I was going to compete with this guy or anything why lie!

[Feral]

Originally posted by 96Z28SS
He is one of the nicest guys at the track.
He won't bullshit you either, ask him something he'll tell ya.
I was with a friend he was having trouble with the TCI tranny controler and Preston was willing to help.

I remember back in '96 when I bought my SS, I went to the track and was running 13.6 all day, and this guy with a 94 Firehawk was running 12.7's so since the cars are similar I asked him what he had done to the car and he said it was only headers and throttlebody, he was a dick head and didn't want to talk, well after talking to a few other people there he had cam and heads and a torque converter and a few other things.
Its not like I was going to compete with this guy or anything why lie!

There is one dude up there with the LPE vette who runs low 10s or high 9s during the weekdays ... he is a total cock. He struts around like a god (and a pile of 16 year olds constantly follow him around) and he knows nothing about his car (he just paid for it) and acts like he's god's special little creature.

[383BackInBlack]

Originally posted by Feral
There is one dude up there with the LPE vette who runs low 10s or high 9s during the weekdays ... he is a total cock. He struts around like a god (and a pile of 16 year olds constantly follow him around) and he knows nothing about his car (he just paid for it) and acts like he's god's special little creature.

ya that guys a fag.....he drives a volvo too

[Superskwrl]

I think preston is friends with that guy with the LPE:eh: , although as some1 already said that guy knows nothing about his car