EFI vs. Carb. Debate, split from "how much HP is enough?"

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
This is true ... lots of people forgot how much you effectively get to cheat when you go FI. Regardless FI is more efficient for making power ... and it does take some engine building ... you need to build the engine to piss to handle the power and then tuning fuel is a whole 'nother can of worms that most N/A guys don't really bother much with.

Yes anyone can build a fast turbo engine ... but at the same time so can anyone blow one up just as easily if not easier ...

nope, a properly tuned carburetor is MUCH more efficient at metering air and fuel than fuel injection, where fuel injection gets its benefit is from being able to "retune" itself for changing atmospheric conditions.

[Jcb890]

i think by FI he might have meant forced induction.

[Feral]

Originally posted by Jcb890
i think by FI he might have meant forced induction.

Yeah that's what I meant ... oh well.

Regardless I refuse to believe that a carb is more efficient ... makes no sense. I can get a perfect A/F ratio by tuning my computer ... and it doesn't get any better than perfect ... so explain to me how a carb is better?? If I can get a 12:1 with my Fuel Injection and you can get a 12:1 with your carb ... neither is better than the other.

Fuel injection just offers more tunability and I can vary my A/F dynamically whenever I want ... something that is critical in a Forced Induction application. You are just wasting fuel if you have a carburator in a Forced Induction application ...

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Yeah that's what I meant ... oh well.

Regardless I refuse to believe that a carb is more efficient ... makes no sense. I can get a perfect A/F ratio by tuning my computer ... and it doesn't get any better than perfect ... so explain to me how a carb is better?? If I can get a 12:1 with my Fuel Injection and you can get a 12:1 with your carb ... neither is better than the other.

Fuel injection just offers more tunability and I can vary my A/F dynamically whenever I want ... something that is critical in a Forced Induction application. You are just wasting fuel if you have a carburator in a Forced Induction application ...

i prefere to call it supernaturally aspirated.......:ninja:

yes, carbureted would still be better because the atomization is much better and leads to more efficient combustion, not to mention the cooling effect you get from the atomization, which typically drops intake temps 30-40 degrees, which is about 50hp in my motor

[Superskwrl]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
i prefere to call it supernaturally aspirated.......:ninja:

yes, carbureted would still be better because the atomization is much better and leads to more efficient combustion, not to mention the cooling effect you get from the atomization, which typically drops intake temps 30-40 degrees, which is about 50hp in my motor


You think the fuel that is litterally pouring from the carb is more atomized than fuel sprayed from an injector?:no:

A carb litterally pours/dumps/leaks fuel into the engine

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
i prefere to call it supernaturally aspirated.......:ninja:

yes, carbureted would still be better because the atomization is much better and leads to more efficient combustion, not to mention the cooling effect you get from the atomization, which typically drops intake temps 30-40 degrees, which is about 50hp in my motor

I dunno ... I can raise my base fuel pressure to about 60psi and I will get some pretty incredible atomization which will supply me with pretty much as much atomization as your carburator and I will cool my intake charge quite a bit. Regardless at higher horsepower levels no one is getting atomization worth mentioning when the firehose opens up the fuel.

Regardless the original comment was about N/A engines and I do think N/A engine builders have to work harder to make HP whereas the F/I builders can cut corners and still hit their goals ... unless of course they are pushing the limits of their setup and then it gets tricky fast.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Superskwrl
You think the fuel that is litterally pouring from the carb is more atomized than fuel sprayed from an injector?:no:

A carb litterally pours/dumps/leaks fuel into the engine

ok you obviously dont know how a carburetor works so i dont want to hear another word from you

[Superskwrl]

:bash:

:eh: : I guess its alot more high tech than that?? how is the fuel introduced to make it atomize so efficiently?

[H3llphyre]

carbs do make more power, but it isnt a whole lot. most of the time, it is more peak power, as it is easier to tune across the band with EFI. But, it CAN be done with a carb.

[NickPSI]

My lawnmower has a carb. It runs like shit.


Therefor carb = bad.


Man, my powers of deduction are amazing!

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by NickPSI
My lawnmower has a carb. It runs like shit.


Therefor carb = bad.


Man, my powers of deduction are amazing!

my lawmower has a carb, it runs the 1/4 in 13 seconds

[Superskwrl]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
my lawmower has a carb, it runs the 1/4 in 13 seconds
Put EFI on it and it will go 12's:ak1: :bash: and get better fuel economy

[Feral]

Well I went digging and found this excellent article ... EFI vs Carbs http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/849/ ... pretty much the synopsis is that carbs are going to stay in top-fuel for a while because the regulators are afraid of trying to regulate it ... afraid of people using the computer to shift and whatnot ... but most people felt EFI was superior for all but a narrow part of the powerband.

EFI:
Broader powerband
Easier to tune
Not affected by inclines or weather
Better fuel economy
Lower emissions
Longer life

Carbs:
Slightly higher peak HP in a narrow RPM range.
Cheaper and easier to implement
Works after a nuclear explosion

Yey ... go carbs!!! Oh wait ... nevermind.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Well I went digging and found this excellent article ... EFI vs Carbs http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/849/ ... pretty much the synopsis is that carbs are going to stay in top-fuel for a while because the regulators are afraid of trying to regulate it ... afraid of people using the computer to shift and whatnot ... but most people felt EFI was superior for all but a narrow part of the powerband.

EFI:
Broader powerband
Easier to tune
Not affected by inclines or weather
Better fuel economy
Lower emissions
Longer life

Carbs:
Slightly higher peak HP in a narrow RPM range.
Cheaper and easier to implement
Works after a nuclear explosion

Yey ... go carbs!!! Oh wait ... nevermind.

carbs will stay in top fuel because there is currenty no way for a solenoid type fuel injector to supply enough fuel for 6000hp motors. fuel injection also has no relation to the life span of an engine. other than putting more drain on the alternator and wearing it out sooner.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
carbs will stay in top fuel because there is currenty no way for a solenoid type fuel injector to supply enough fuel for 6000hp motors. fuel injection also has no relation to the life span of an engine. other than putting more drain on the alternator and wearing it out sooner.

There is always bigger. Smaller is the concern. Big is EASY, they probably just don't have big right now. Nothing that couldn't be designed easy enough.

[Jack ffr1846]

"when you can spin the tires from the exit of every corner into the beginning of the next, then you have enough power"

David Donohue

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
carbs will stay in top fuel because there is currenty no way for a solenoid type fuel injector to supply enough fuel for 6000hp motors. fuel injection also has no relation to the life span of an engine. other than putting more drain on the alternator and wearing it out sooner.

Engines and engine components last longer running at certain consistent fuel levels ... with a carb you end up with random lean and rich conditions that fuck everything up. With FI you can get a clean burn everytime. Also making big injectors isn't an issue. You are right ... the biggest they make is 160lb which with 8 only gives you 2000HP ... but 16 would give you 4000 ... and as Jay said ... making a bigger injector is not an issue.

[SickboySS]

with any major mods to a fuel infected car you have to have computer work done, which means a new chip burnt, which gets expensive or you have to know alot to do it...hyperjunk chips wont do anything..

i personally prefer to tune my car with a screwdriver in a few minutes than hooking up a laptop or something and going in and reading all sorts of graphs and fuel maps and curves and shit

chevy tpi for example - chokes at abour 4500
carbs - well shit, i've seen guys crank 327's up to 12k drag racing with carbs and that didnt run out of air at all

[Feral]

Originally posted by SickboySS
with any major mods to a fuel infected car you have to have computer work done, which means a new chip burnt, which gets expensive or you have to know alot to do it...hyperjunk chips wont do anything..

i personally prefer to tune my car with a screwdriver in a few minutes than hooking up a laptop or something and going in and reading all sorts of graphs and fuel maps and curves and shit

chevy tpi for example - chokes at abour 4500
carbs - well shit, i've seen guys crank 327's up to 12k drag racing with carbs and that didnt run out of air at all

It all depends on the EFI setup. With my car I just turn a knob and I have all the fuel I want and still get all the benefits of EFI. Personally I would never go the "chip burning" route ... I would splurge and get a full aftermarket EFI setup that lets you control every little aspect of fuel.

Additionally when you include the fact that through EFI you can control fuel based on timing and knock ... you get the ultimate in control which carbs can only meter fuel based on air flow ... which isn't all parts of the equation. For instance adding more timing and adding a little more fuel under certain conditions might make more power than just maintaining a certain A/F ratio.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by SickboySS
with any major mods to a fuel infected car you have to have computer work done, which means a new chip burnt, which gets expensive or you have to know alot to do it...hyperjunk chips wont do anything..

i personally prefer to tune my car with a screwdriver in a few minutes than hooking up a laptop or something and going in and reading all sorts of graphs and fuel maps and curves and shit

chevy tpi for example - chokes at abour 4500
carbs - well shit, i've seen guys crank 327's up to 12k drag racing with carbs and that didnt run out of air at all

Well, the difference is, your "under the hood for a few minutes" is just a guess. With EFI, I can sit there with a laptop inside the car, watch a graph of anything I want, and see more or less, exactly how much to add or subtract. Plus, I never have to get out of the car. I can just get on the highway and keep making 3 gear blasts to get some readings... not that I have ever done this before... nope, would never do that on the highway.

As for TPI cars running out of steam... that has very little to do with EFI and more to do with the intake design (a little) and the cam. Mostly the cam.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Well, the difference is, your "under the hood for a few minutes" is just a guess. With EFI, I can sit there with a laptop inside the car, watch a graph of anything I want, and see more or less, exactly how much to add or subtract. Plus, I never have to get out of the car. I can just get on the highway and keep making 3 gear blasts to get some readings... not that I have ever done this before... nope, would never do that on the highway.

As for TPI cars running out of steam... that has very little to do with EFI and more to do with the intake design (a little) and the cam. Mostly the cam.

Yeah and for turbo cars this is even better since with a nice stand alone you can program in different A/F maps for different driving and even have it switch maps based on the TPS and change the boost levels as well. Nothing like having a "cruising" setting and hitting a switch and having a "Fuck them all and let them die" setting. With a nice EFI setup this is all possible ... no such thing as this for a carb though.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Engines and engine components last longer running at certain consistent fuel levels ... with a carb you end up with random lean and rich conditions that fuck everything up. With FI you can get a clean burn everytime. Also making big injectors isn't an issue. You are right ... the biggest they make is 160lb which with 8 only gives you 2000HP ... but 16 would give you 4000 ... and as Jay said ... making a bigger injector is not an issue.

a properly tuned carb has NO random conditions.

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

The thing that I don't understand, is the guy proffessing all this carburator love runs a fuel injection set up himself......?

Zach

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by ThaSac (MicZic)
The thing that I don't understand, is the guy proffessing all this carburator love runs a fuel injection set up himself......?

Zach

No, his is carb'd now.

[Devin Mac]

spence is just bitter because he couldn't figure out how to get fuel injection to work...

it's ok, spence. someday you'll be be a big boy and figure out a real fuel delivery setup.

http://www.jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/~lsmarr/photos/thumbs%20up.jpg

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
a properly tuned carb has NO random conditions. Yes it does ... when it get colder than when you tuned it you run lean and when it gets warmer than when you tuned it gets rich. Same with humidity ... same with steep inclines or declines ...

[Slowhawk]

For an all out race motor that runs the 1/4,a carb is best but give a peakier power band.
A carb is no where as good as fuel injection for tunability/drivability!! That is a fact!!

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Yes it does ... when it get colder than when you tuned it you run lean and when it gets warmer than when you tuned it gets rich. Same with humidity ... same with steep inclines or declines ...

I repeat a PROPERLY TUNED carburetor has no randomness.

and kurtis, you know absolutely nothing about carburetors so keep your fan boy biased views to the one sdie you have a clue about.

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

oooo, he done did it

Zach

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
I repeat a PROPERLY TUNED carburetor has no randomness.

and kurtis, you know absolutely nothing about carburetors so keep your fan boy biased views to the one sdie you have a clue about.

This is true ... I haven't ever touched a carburetor in my life ... I won't deny that. All I have is the research I've done on the subject which deals with the theory and not the actual implementation ... got me there.

But are you going to honestly tell me if you tune a carb on one day when it is 30 degrees and dry and the next day is 80 degrees and wet that the car won't be running rich as a pig?

Yes I am a fanboy of superior technology, hate to say it. Superior technology produces better results, even if it is harder to tune or manage, even if it requires that I use a computer to tune it. The carb is nice because it does indeed atomize the fuel better and it is easy as hell to get a car running with a carb ... but ease of implementation doesn't necessarily mean better ... it is only one factor in that equation.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
This is true ... I haven't ever touched a carburetor in my life ... I won't deny that. All I have is the research I've done on the subject which deals with the theory and not the actual implementation ... got me there.

But are you going to honestly tell me if you tune a carb on one day when it is 30 degrees and dry and the next day is 80 degrees and wet that the car won't be running rich as a pig?

Yes I am a fanboy of superior technology, hate to say it. Superior technology produces better results, even if it is harder to tune or manage, even if it requires that I use a computer to tune it. The carb is nice because it does indeed atomize the fuel better and it is easy as hell to get a car running with a carb ... but ease of implementation doesn't necessarily mean better ... it is only one factor in that equation.

i've tuned the s10 carburetor once, the entire time i've raced it i has been nothing but consistent, out of the 100 passes on that 75 of them have been 13.6 @107 +- .05/.5 , and this has been at nite in fall, spring daytime summer humid, dry, raining, icy. The last time i raced it i made 7 13.0 passes, from 9 am to 6pm with dew on the windshield in the morning, to 100 degrees at 1 to 70 at 6. Not saying a properly tuned EFI system wouldn't do the same, but if i can't change jets then you can't touch the laptop. personally i would rather rely on wrenches than any piece of electronic equipment to tune my car. hands down a carburetor is more reliable, it either works or it doesnt, EFI has sensors to malfunction, and magnetic fields to be screwed up, and for any race car that is going to be driven on the street, reliability is key.

[Mr Joshua]

i'v played with both, and i'm no way even close to becoming a master of either... but i find i can tune a carb 10x faster by ear, than i can with fuel injection.. infinate amount of settings and calibrations for fuel injection w/ a computer and a stand alone injection management system... compaired to changing jets, cams, etc.. on a carb...
i say carbs win hands down as far of ease of tuning..
~J

[Superskwrl]

Let me start by saying Go Feral, go feral, its your birthday:smokin:

Last time i saw a fuel car there was no carb on it, they have mechanical injection, and EFI is NOT allowed in any of the NHRA big class'
I heard through the Grapevine "WJ" has a efi system that NHRA is reviewing, which is ironic since they basically pin him against the import guys in the new hot rod

They do make injectors larger than 160, i think 220 is the largest i have heard of

I think 540malibu will have a steep learing curver with a blowthrough carb and big blower,i personally have never seen any1 take programmable EFI off, i have however seen 2 guys who would tell me how great the carb was switch to EFI:bash:

As for this properly tuned carb stuff, i have never seen a properly tuned carb then, i would like to see 1, tell me when and where

As for the ease of tunning with a carb, try a EFI system with a built in Wb02, that automatically wil make the car run @ desired A/F

Carb better for HP?? how is there good distribution with a Carb and a BBC, the end runners are gonna be leaner??how can correct for that with making the inner runners richer? I was taught to tune to the leanest cylinder??
Ask Jimmy Reid who has the Super Stock record of some sort, he went faster swithing to efi from carb

:ak1:

[Paulie C.]

efi is way more efficient but u cant beat the sound of like a quadrabog haha:lol:

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Black99Cobra
i'v played with both, and i'm no way even close to becoming a master of either... but i find i can tune a carb 10x faster by ear, than i can with fuel injection.. infinate amount of settings and calibrations for fuel injection w/ a computer and a stand alone injection management system... compaired to changing jets, cams, etc.. on a carb...
i say carbs win hands down as far of ease of tuning..
~J

Eh... why do it by ear when I can have a wideband 02 sensor and EGTs telling me EXACTLY how the car is running. Then, I can change the fuel where ever the hell i want to in the rpm range, getting the maximum power for the entire band. Ignorance of a system does not mean the system is worse then another... that goes for both EFI and carbs. They both have their place, and until they come out with better injectors, carbs are gonna make more power.

[540Malibu]

carburetors wont be going anywhere anytime for a long long long time. the day carbs are over, will be the day they implement a working replacement for bernoulies principle, which means planes will no longer fly.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
carburetors wont be going anywhere anytime for a long long long time. the day carbs are over, will be the day they implement a working replacement for bernoulies principle, which means planes will no longer fly.

Haha.... Ah yes, and the world is flat and the universe rotates around the earth....

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
They both have their place, and until they come out with better injectors, carbs are gonna make more *peak*power.

[Slowhawk]

I love reading this thread:)

On 1 side you have Carb people that have no clue about fuel injection
The other side is the fuel injection age that have no idea about Carbs:eh:

Here is an idea..Why not build a test motor like a 454 with a nastly cam and head setup(like 8'" of vacuum or less).Run it on the street and track to test a carb,then switch to fuel injection and try again..

I can garrenty that a DFI will run alot better on the street and faster at the track..I've seen and been in 1200hp DFI cars that you can daily drive in traffic while still getting decent fuel mileage..

I was a carb guy for many years and thought they were the shit.Started with fuel injection and hated it,then spent alot of time learning how it works and now won't go back to carbs.

You can take my car..346 2.02/1.60 valves,11.4-1 compression,236/230 cam with .600/.580 lift..32 degree's of timing on pump gas.The car idles at 850rpm very smoothly and has perfect drivability at all rpm ranges,also gets 26 MPG on the highway.Pushes 440rwhp which is around 500hp at the crank.

Nough said:)

[Mr Joshua]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Eh... why do it by ear when I can have a wideband 02 sensor and EGTs telling me EXACTLY how the car is running. Then, I can change the fuel where ever the hell i want to in the rpm range, getting the maximum power for the entire band. Ignorance of a system does not mean the system is worse then another... that goes for both EFI and carbs. They both have their place, and until they come out with better injectors, carbs are gonna make more power.
i am in no way ignorent, i don't have the $ to go spend on a Wideband... just to tune my shitty pickup.. tuning by ear is good enough for me, as far as that goes..
so put that in your corn cob pipe and smoke it..
~J

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Black99Cobra
i am in no way ignorent, i don't have the $ to go spend on a Wideband... just to tune my shitty pickup.. tuning by ear is good enough for me, as far as that goes..
so put that in your corn cob pipe and smoke it..
~J

Well, we are talking more about sport applications here... Not "getting my car running". If you are going to spend the money on a standalone system, then you definately have the money for a WB02... So, in your situation... sure. Of course, if you had EFI, you wouldn't be tuning your truck, now would you?

[96Z28SS]

I have personally seen a motor on an engine dyno with a single plane intake and carb that was professionally built and tuned for the application, they then switched the intake and swapped it with the identical intake but modified with fuel rails and a throttle body, swapped the necessary fuel pump etc.. to make EFI work.

I can't remember the exact number so I won't say what I think the difference was, but the EFI made more power through out the whole rpm range.

Rob
www.nedyno.org
www.dynotune.org