Split from: Went to go buy a left over 03 Cobra today (Jap engineering vs American Engineering)

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Excellent choice in arguements. Not only does it have an awesome interior, but I believe it was Ford's first use of the DOHC 4.6.


As for the domestic's dated engines... The Big3 are so advanced, they wrapped around and started over again. Do I need to state that the Big3 had DOHC before honda existed? LOL.

Need I mention that the big 3 have not brought to market new and innovated technology since the 60's. Who the fuck cares what the come up with ... implementation is all that matters and they have always simply stuck with the old shit because all they care about is profit and the old shit is cheap and sells good enough ... so good enough is all they have done for the past 3 decades. Its fucking lame ... and young companies come to the table willing to take a risk on some innovative technology ... unlike the big 3 lame old fuck companies who just curmudgeon around talking about the good ol' days. Fuck that ... old people should die.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Need I mention that the big 3 have not brought to market new and innovated technology since the 60's. Who the fuck cares what the come up with ... implementation is all that matters and they have always simply stuck with the old shit because all they care about is profit and the old shit is cheap and sells good enough ... so good enough is all they have done for the past 3 decades. Its fucking lame ... and young companies come to the table willing to take a risk on some innovative technology ... unlike the big 3 lame old fuck companies who just curmudgeon around talking about the good ol' days. Fuck that ... old people should die.

Shit, one of the only companies to actually bring anything "new" to the table in the past few decades has been Mazda... with the rotary and the miller cycle engine... Other then that, not a whole lot new. Sure, hybrids are new (not revolutionary tech really) and CVT's are kinda new (old tech, just implemented now). What really has anyone brought to the table lately? V-tech? Eh, bunch of companies have had that (including GM) for a while, they just never advertised it as they didnt see the need until Honda did and everyone wanted it. I'm not saying that the Big3 have really innovated much in the past few decades. They stopped doing that back in the 60's. But, the imports really havent done a whole lot either. Cars are still more or less the same as they were 60 years ago.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
excuse me? GM had Digital sequential fuel injection long before anyone else, and also is the ONLY manufactururer to successfully engineer a motor with electric solenoids to actuate the valves.

Still haven't been able to find any info on the solenoid based valves...

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Still haven't been able to find any info on the solenoid based valves...

look in an old issue of hotrod, theres like 3-5 pages of info on it.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
look in an old issue of hotrod, theres like 3-5 pages of info on it.

Dammit.... how am I supposed to find that?

[Mr Joshua]

i think i'v got some issues of hotrod back from the 60-70's
~J

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Black99Cobra
i think i'v got some issues of hotrod back from the 60-70's
~J

I think it is probably more recent

[Mr Joshua]

i can't remember when ford came out with, if i remember right 429 dohc.. late 60's? early 70's?
havn't a clue when the japanese came out with an ohc motor?
~J

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Black99Cobra
i can't remember when ford came out with, if i remember right 429 dohc.. late 60's? early 70's?
havn't a clue when the japanese came out with an ohc motor?
~J
it was a 427 I believe... Late 60's. Came out to compete with the maro, cuz they needed it. Olds never released their DOHC motor, as it was deemed cost prohibitive. The ford cammer went pretty quick too, as it was an EXPENSIVE option.

The Olds engine was said to put down 750hp in street trim though.

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by Feral
Need I mention that the big 3 have not brought to market new and innovated technology since the 60's. Who the fuck cares what the come up with ... implementation is all that matters and they have always simply stuck with the old shit because all they care about is profit and the old shit is cheap and sells good enough ... so good enough is all they have done for the past 3 decades. Its fucking lame ... and young companies come to the table willing to take a risk on some innovative technology ... unlike the big 3 lame old fuck companies who just curmudgeon around talking about the good ol' days. Fuck that ... old people should die. Umm, GM just came out with hydroformed frame rails a few years back. Not engine related but still new technology :cool2:

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
it was a 427 I believe... Late 60's. Came out to compete with the maro, cuz they needed it. Olds never released their DOHC motor, as it was deemed cost prohibitive. The ford cammer went pretty quick too, as it was an EXPENSIVE option.

The Olds engine was said to put down 750hp in street trim though.

ford cammer was 1964, rated 650horse in the dual quad app.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by bottledbird68
Umm, GM just came out with hydroformed frame rails a few years back. Not engine related but still new technology :cool2:

Not to mention the fact that GM's factories are more efficient then any japanese factory.... actually, the most efficient car factories in the world. There is a reason they make a shitload of money. They may sell a lot of shitty cars, but they make a shitload of money off of them. Although it may seem as though their cars lack attention to design, it is not so true. They design their cars to be the most profitable. Not to be the coolest. Its all about money. For an example of an overengineered car, check out the caddy sixteen. They are capable of great things, they just need a DAMN good reason to do it.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Not to mention the fact that GM's factories are more efficient then any japanese factory.... actually, the most efficient car factories in the world. There is a reason they make a shitload of money. They may sell a lot of shitty cars, but they make a shitload of money off of them. Although it may seem as though their cars lack attention to design, it is not so true. They design their cars to be the most profitable. Not to be the coolest. Its all about money. For an example of an overengineered car, check out the caddy sixteen. They are capable of great things, they just need a DAMN good reason to do it.

Oh I am not saying they can't engineer ... my point is they choose not to because it isn't profitable ... as you said. Well fuck them ... I don't care about their profit I care about the car I'm getting ... I care about how much they care about me ... not about their bottom line. Why the fuck would I want to support a company whose major concern is profit?

No doubt ... the big 3 invented most of the awesome technology out there ... but they didn't implement it or if they did ... it was piss poor and corner-cutting. Nissan was the first company to bring DOHC to mass market back in the mid 70's as a standard option in most of their cars. Nissan was the first company to bring coil-over suspension to mass market as well. Nissan and Honda were to first companies to mass market electronic Fuel injection. Nissan, Honda, and Mitsu were the first companies to mass market fuel-injected turbo cars (GM and Nissan both had out carb'ed turbo cars late 70's) but those fucking sucked. Honda was the first company to really push the VVT idea (although now the exotics have it down ... infinitely variable cam profiles like a CVT but for VVT). VW and Audi brought turbo-diesels to america ... truly efficient cars. Honda and Toyota brought us Hybrids ... fuck the new toyota hybrid is hitting 60 mpg consistently. Yes Mazda did bring us rotaries ... a tiny and light engine that makes the most power lb for lb of any production engine out there (a 13b weighs less than most transmissions).

Just look at the statistics ... the #1 car still on the road after 10 years is a fucking camry ... toyota's low-mid level sedan ... followed in second place by te Civic ... honda's low level compact. You will never find a cavalier, lumina, or taurus anywhere near the top 25 even though they were all made in equal if not greater numbers. You don't see a 75% + survival rate in any american car after that long ... but a large majority of even cheap and low-end imports do in fact last that long. And the reason is because these new "chink" cars are built by companies that actually give a shit about their customers and their quality ... not some fat-cat american company that only gives a shit about the bottomline and will cut as many corners as necessary to meet it. Those rich-bloated american companies know that good little god-fearing ... red-blooded American boys like you will eat up their latest offerings no matter how shitty or underengineered they are because we won WWII and that's 'nuff said.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Not to mention the fact that GM's factories are more efficient then any japanese factory.... actually, the most efficient car factories in the world. There is a reason they make a shitload of money. They may sell a lot of shitty cars, but they make a shitload of money off of them. Although it may seem as though their cars lack attention to design, it is not so true. They design their cars to be the most profitable. Not to be the coolest. Its all about money. For an example of an overengineered car, check out the caddy sixteen. They are capable of great things, they just need a DAMN good reason to do it.

Fine. Lets line up a Northstar after 125,000 miles next to my VR4 after 125,000 miles and see which one burns less oil and which one still holds stock compression levels in every valve?? Shall we? I know for a fact my car ... after 80,000 miles at 320 FWHP, 25,000 miles at 400 FWHP and 15,000 miles at 600 FWHP still has within 10 points of stock compression and burns only 8 oz. of oil every 3,000 miles. And it's not just my car ... the valvetrain in these 3/S's is fucking awesome ... will consistently hold 8,500 rpms without float. And mitsubishi is nowhere near the best ... in fact when it comes to jap companies they blow. Don't even mention a toyota or a honda. A $12,000 honda civic will put Caddilac's "super-duper-american-engineering" to shame at 1/4 the price.

[Blackwidow]

American companies are more profit-based .. where as "foreign" companies like Honda and Toyota are extremely comsumer based and idealy .. that is the more american value than "sticking with a good thing cause it makes $$"



so who's the more american engineered company?

Feral don't forget who came out on top after WWII .. cause it certainly wasn't the US

[Feral]

Originally posted by Lil RedCorvette
Feral don't forget who came out on top after WWII .. cause it certainly wasn't the US

Yeah it was Rwanda ... fucking Rwandidians (???). I was just pointing out how most G.I.Joe americans pretty much love talking about how their pappies (or now grand-pappies) kicked the yellow people's asses half a century ago and this is why you should neve ever buy a foreign car. I fucking can't stand racist people ... makes me wanna rage ... so fucking closed-minded.

Ok ... gotta chill out before I start scaring people in nearby cubes.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Oh I am not saying they can't engineer ... my point is they choose not to because it isn't profitable ... as you said. Well fuck them ... I don't care about their profit I care about the car I'm getting ... I care about how much they care about me ... not about their bottom line. Why the fuck would I want to support a company whose major concern is profit?

No doubt ... the big 3 invented most of the awesome technology out there ... but they didn't implement it or if they did ... it was piss poor and corner-cutting. Nissan was the first company to bring DOHC to mass market back in the mid 70's as a standard option in most of their cars. Nissan was the first company to bring coil-over suspension to mass market as well. Nissan and Honda were to first companies to mass market electronic Fuel injection. Nissan, Honda, and Mitsu were the first companies to mass market fuel-injected turbo cars (GM and Nissan both had out carb'ed turbo cars late 70's) but those fucking sucked. Honda was the first company to really push the VVT idea (although now the exotics have it down ... infinitely variable cam profiles like a CVT but for VVT). VW and Audi brought turbo-diesels to america ... truly efficient cars. Honda and Toyota brought us Hybrids ... fuck the new toyota hybrid is hitting 60 mpg consistently. Yes Mazda did bring us rotaries ... a tiny and light engine that makes the most power lb for lb of any production engine out there (a 13b weighs less than most transmissions).

Just look at the statistics ... the #1 car still on the road after 10 years is a fucking camry ... toyota's low-mid level sedan ... followed in second place by te Civic ... honda's low level compact. You will never find a cavalier, lumina, or taurus anywhere near the top 25 even though they were all made in equal if not greater numbers. You don't see a 75% + survival rate in any american car after that long ... but a large majority of even cheap and low-end imports do in fact last that long. And the reason is because these new "chink" cars are built by companies that actually give a shit about their customers and their quality ... not some fat-cat american company that only gives a shit about the bottomline and will cut as many corners as necessary to meet it. Those rich-bloated american companies know that good little god-fearing ... red-blooded American boys like you will eat up their latest offerings no matter how shitty or underengineered they are because we won WWII and that's 'nuff said.

actually GM had brought about turbo diesel LONG before audi, audi just put it in a piss poor car that couldnt keep up with a pinto

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Fine. Lets line up a Northstar after 125,000 miles next to my VR4 after 125,000 miles and see which one burns less oil and which one still holds stock compression levels in every valve?? Shall we? I know for a fact my car ... after 80,000 miles at 320 FWHP, 25,000 miles at 400 FWHP and 15,000 miles at 600 FWHP still has within 10 points of stock compression and burns only 8 oz. of oil every 3,000 miles. And it's not just my car ... the valvetrain in these 3/S's is fucking awesome ... will consistently hold 8,500 rpms without float. And mitsubishi is nowhere near the best ... in fact when it comes to jap companies they blow. Don't even mention a toyota or a honda. A $12,000 honda civic will put Caddilac's "super-duper-american-engineering" to shame at 1/4 the price.

hey, guess what, you are no longer running stock turbos , if you were....good bye oil, where are the 1970 civics? YUP THATS WHAT I THOUGHT, where are the mid 80's toyota pickups? oops forgot they all rotted away fact is GM H-bodies (equivalent to honda's and toyota's eco-crap) are twice as reliable, just look at how many of them still plague this country.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Just look at the statistics ... the #1 car still on the road after 10 years is a fucking camry ... toyota's low-mid level sedan ... followed in second place by te Civic ... honda's low level compact. You will never find a cavalier, lumina, or taurus anywhere near the top 25 even though they were all made in equal if not greater numbers. You don't see a 75% + survival rate in any american car after that long ... but a large majority of even cheap and low-end imports do in fact last that long. And the reason is because these new "chink" cars are built by companies that actually give a shit about their customers and their quality ... not some fat-cat american company that only gives a shit about the bottomline and will cut as many corners as necessary to meet it. Those rich-bloated american companies know that good little god-fearing ... red-blooded American boys like you will eat up their latest offerings no matter how shitty or underengineered they are because we won WWII and that's 'nuff said.

Yes, the Big3 are retards in some degree. They are just big businesses.... More money is better. But, they are slowly creeping up the charts for quality. The Buick Regal was recently named one of the best quality sedans out there recently. beating out a lot of the imports. But, Honda and Toyota still build a better vehicle.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral


Just look at the statistics ... the #1 car still on the road after 10 years is a fucking camry ... toyota's low-mid level sedan ... followed in second place by te Civic ... honda's low level compact. You will never find a cavalier, lumina, or taurus anywhere near the top 25 even though they were all made in equal if not greater numbers. You don't see a 75% + survival rate in any american car after that long ... but a large majority of even cheap and low-end imports do in fact last that long. And the reason is because these new "chink" cars are built by companies that actually give a shit about their customers and their quality ... not some fat-cat american company that only gives a shit about the bottomline and will cut as many corners as necessary to meet it. Those rich-bloated american companies know that good little god-fearing ... red-blooded American boys like you will eat up their latest offerings no matter how shitty or underengineered they are because we won WWII and that's 'nuff said.

why choose 10 years? why not 20 years? good bye jap cars,

the reason the gook cars last that long is becasue the mooneyed owners are too damn cheap to get rid of em, thats why they bought the car in the first place.

[TunedPort 335]

:lol: :lol:

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
hey, guess what, you are no longer running stock turbos , if you were....good bye oil, where are the 1970 civics? YUP THATS WHAT I THOUGHT, where are the mid 80's toyota pickups? oops forgot they all rotted away fact is GM H-bodies (equivalent to honda's and toyota's eco-crap) are twice as reliable, just look at how many of them still plague this country.

It wasn't until the late 80's/ early 90's that the jap engineering really started to take off. Up until that point they were nothing more than the ultra-econo-boxes. Regardless I've seen more Toyotas and Hondas with 300,000 miles an all original engine and tranny than I have any other kind of car. Hell everyone thought it was a joke that my roomates' escort had 270,000 on the original engine and tranny because it's so rare ... no one laughs when you tell them it was a civic or corolla because it's perfectly plausible.

Shit even the LS1's ... the vaunted "best pushrod motor ever" burn through over a quart of oil every 3000 miles by the 50k mark ... that's fucking retarded ... but is par for the course. Go american quality!!

American trucks are good ... but mostly because there is no competition. Nissan just recently put out a full size pickup ... first ever full size pickup made by a foreign company. Thusfar it is doing pretty excellent but it will probably have issues just like any other brand new vehicle. Toyota's newer trucks are doing fine ... the T100 and Tundra have some of the highest ratings of any pickup when it comes to longevity and durability. Standard issue toyota quality control is all that is ... something the American companies have been without.

And please explain to me how not getting rid of a car that is still running in perfectly fine condition after 10 years and 300,000 miles is being cheap?? Why the fuck should I have to buy a new car as long as mine is still running fine? Of course I gues you wouldn't understand that ... all you drive are shitty american vehicles that blow chunks every few years. It's sad when a "reliable" american vehicle is one that lasts 100,000 miles without a major issue. People talk about the 3800 series engines with pride and respect because they can hit 150,000 miles some of the time. Your average b16 honda motor hits 350,000.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Yes, the Big3 are retards in some degree. They are just big businesses.... More money is better. But, they are slowly creeping up the charts for quality. The Buick Regal was recently named one of the best quality sedans out there recently. beating out a lot of the imports. But, Honda and Toyota still build a better vehicle.

Yeah but you wouldn't ever in your life buy a honda or toyota product because that's not what your daddy taught ya ... I swear 90% of americans just end up clones of their parents. I'm glad I didn't really have any so I could decide who I wanted to be for myself.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Yeah but you wouldn't ever in your life buy a honda or toyota product because that's not what your daddy taught ya ... I swear 90% of americans just end up clones of their parents. I'm glad I didn't really have any so I could decide who I wanted to be for myself.

Actually, if there is one thing to say, its that my father is quite the opposite of brand loyal. He goes for the best deal for the money, which MOST of the time happens to be domestic used cars. Although, he has been eyeing toyota pickups for a while.

You are right. There really isnt a single toyota or honda I would buy. Maybe a lexus, but thats about it. nissan on the other hand, has a few cars I wouldn't mind driving as daily drivers. My problem with honda is that they don't bother changing their seat designs over for us larger americans... so it usually leads to a pretty uncomfy ride. Toyota, I have no quams with. They build awesome cars... I just don't like em much after having driven more or less everything they have to offer. I don't like small cars. Its not really brand specific as model specific... I just have a weird hardon for large vehicles.

Also... try using the LT1 as an engine to compare to. They have no problems lasting multiple hundreds of thousands of miles... Neither do a lot of GM's other engines.... Just the LS1 and Northstar out of the current batch that more or less suck.

[Feral]

Trust me I wouldn't own a toyota either ... maybe a Supra or a hybrid ... but the rest of their cars are rather bland. I would gladly own a civic and more specifically the hybrid civic ... but they are quite pricey for a commuter car. I am in love with the NSX and would love to have an integra GSR as a daily driver ... but again ... too pricey for me. Maxima's are a bit too inefficient for me ... don't get the gas mileage I would want out of a commuter car ... pretty good car though.

I am the exact opposite ... when it comes to a commuter car I want the smallest most fuel efficient and maintenance efficient vehicle I can find. The saturn gets 40mpg on the highway ... pretty good but not as good as I want. I want 60mpg ... might have to save up for a hybrid. I consider the internal combustion engine a tradgedy of technology ... we have all we need to be easily making 100mpg ... but the oil companies wont let us ... sigh.

Anyhow modern american vehicles are getting better ... but its taken them a loooong time. There's still nothing american that compares to a hyundai accent ... $8k for a car that comes with a 100,000 mile warranty and will actually last much longer and do everything it advertises to do ... amazing little value for a throw-away car. GM had a good car in the Saturn and could have competed with Honda and Hyundai ... too bad the engines totally suck in these things. Oh well ... supposedly the ecotec is gonna change that ... GM hasn't given me any reason to believe them.

And with Nissan entering the truck arena (and with quite an awesome truck too) and I'm sure Toyota won't be far behind ... looks like the bar is going to be raised on trucks as well. Can't wait ...

[ThaSac (MicZic)]

Pintos are awsome

Zach

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
It wasn't until the late 80's/ early 90's that the jap engineering really started to take off. Up until that point they were nothing more than the ultra-econo-boxes. Regardless I've seen more Toyotas and Hondas with 300,000 miles an all original engine and tranny than I have any other kind of car. Hell everyone thought it was a joke that my roomates' escort had 270,000 on the original engine and tranny because it's so rare ... no one laughs when you tell them it was a civic or corolla because it's perfectly plausible.

Shit even the LS1's ... the vaunted "best pushrod motor ever" burn through over a quart of oil every 3000 miles by the 50k mark ... that's fucking retarded ... but is par for the course. Go american quality!!

American trucks are good ... but mostly because there is no competition. Nissan just recently put out a full size pickup ... first ever full size pickup made by a foreign company. Thusfar it is doing pretty excellent but it will probably have issues just like any other brand new vehicle. Toyota's newer trucks are doing fine ... the T100 and Tundra have some of the highest ratings of any pickup when it comes to longevity and durability. Standard issue toyota quality control is all that is ... something the American companies have been without.

And please explain to me how not getting rid of a car that is still running in perfectly fine condition after 10 years and 300,000 miles is being cheap?? Why the fuck should I have to buy a new car as long as mine is still running fine? Of course I gues you wouldn't understand that ... all you drive are shitty american vehicles that blow chunks every few years. It's sad when a "reliable" american vehicle is one that lasts 100,000 miles without a major issue. People talk about the 3800 series engines with pride and respect because they can hit 150,000 miles some of the time. Your average b16 honda motor hits 350,000.

show me an old pushrod motor than you need to pull apart every 80k to change a belt, my malibu had 370k on the original CAR every part was original, only problem was the frame and floors rotted out. Didn't burn or leak any oil.

alos show me an econo-crap jap car that takes an all out beating for 150k, they dont because the people that buy them dont beat on the car, i can blow up a honda motor and tranny in 30 seconds if i wanted to it would take at least 2 minutes to blow up a chevy motor.

hell big block chevies in Truck form last well over 500k, and these are 45 year old design motors. Yout buddies escort had 270 on it cuz he never beat on it, its just simple transportation. Even look at these beat into the ground police cars everyone just picked up, just about all of em have 200k or more and they still run mint, keep in mind these are just miles, god knows how many HOURS are on the motors sitting there waiting for ricers fart canons to drive by.

Also, show me a nip mobile that can jump a loading dock and keep driving, show me one that does 7 years of burnouts and racing with nitrous.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Trust me I wouldn't own a toyota either ... maybe a Supra or a hybrid ... but the rest of their cars are rather bland. I would gladly own a civic and more specifically the hybrid civic ... but they are quite pricey for a commuter car. I am in love with the NSX and would love to have an integra GSR as a daily driver ... but again ... too pricey for me. Maxima's are a bit too inefficient for me ... don't get the gas mileage I would want out of a commuter car ... pretty good car though.

I am the exact opposite ... when it comes to a commuter car I want the smallest most fuel efficient and maintenance efficient vehicle I can find. The saturn gets 40mpg on the highway ... pretty good but not as good as I want. I want 60mpg ... might have to save up for a hybrid. I consider the internal combustion engine a tradgedy of technology ... we have all we need to be easily making 100mpg ... but the oil companies wont let us ... sigh.

Anyhow modern american vehicles are getting better ... but its taken them a loooong time. There's still nothing american that compares to a hyundai accent ... $8k for a car that comes with a 100,000 mile warranty and will actually last much longer and do everything it advertises to do ... amazing little value for a throw-away car. GM had a good car in the Saturn and could have competed with Honda and Hyundai ... too bad the engines totally suck in these things. Oh well ... supposedly the ecotec is gonna change that ... GM hasn't given me any reason to believe them.

And with Nissan entering the truck arena (and with quite an awesome truck too) and I'm sure Toyota won't be far behind ... looks like the bar is going to be raised on trucks as well. Can't wait ...

Honda is jumping onto the bandwagon with trucks too. They are poised to show their new truck at the detroit auto show. Pretty neat, i suppose. Just more commuter trucks out there. Yea freakin haw.

I forgot who it was (BMW maybe), but one of the companies is bringing a diesel hybrid to the states. YEA! About fucking time. I am guessing it should get some ridiculous gas milage (100mpg maybe) considering a TDI Jetta gets 60mpg...

I agree with toyota, they just don't have anything that screams out to me. Although, the Echo that I had as a rental for a month was awesome. Well, aside from the whole no power steering bit. It was a PITA to drive on the highway. nice little car though.

The reason I don't want a small car as a commuter is VERY simple. If i were in maine, i would have one with no quams, but living in a state where people can't drive for shit and hit other people, i want as much steel around me as possible. The bigger, the better. Once I move out of this god forsaken state back to maine, I will get a smal car. most likely an echo, or a hybrid or something. It will counter balance my 6mpg street legal drag car I will build some day.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Anyhow modern american vehicles are getting better ... but its taken them a loooong time. There's still nothing american that compares to a hyundai accent ... $8k for a car that comes with a 100,000 mile warranty and will actually last much longer and do everything it advertises to do ... amazing little value for a throw-away car. GM had a good car in the Saturn and could have competed with Honda and Hyundai ... too bad the engines totally suck in these things. Oh well ... supposedly the ecotec is gonna change that ... GM hasn't given me any reason to believe them.


They will this summer... They have a new subcompact car they are coming out with. Slated for the sub $10K price range.

[bottledbird68]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
show me an old pushrod motor than you need to pull apart every 80k to change a belt, my malibu had 370k on the original CAR every part was original, only problem was the frame and floors rotted out. Didn't burn or leak any oil.

alos show me an econo-crap jap car that takes an all out beating for 150k, they dont because the people that buy them dont beat on the car, i can blow up a honda motor and tranny in 30 seconds if i wanted to it would take at least 2 minutes to blow up a chevy motor.

hell big block chevies in Truck form last well over 500k, and these are 45 year old design motors. Yout buddies escort had 270 on it cuz he never beat on it, its just simple transportation. Even look at these beat into the ground police cars everyone just picked up, just about all of em have 200k or more and they still run mint, keep in mind these are just miles, god knows how many HOURS are on the motors sitting there waiting for ricers fart canons to drive by.

Also, show me a nip mobile that can jump a loading dock and keep driving, show me one that does 7 years of burnouts and racing with nitrous. Now that's scary, I agree with 90% of that :D Imports are awesome for normal transportation if you are the average person. I think it's safe to say no one here is average. Sure they last 300k miles, but they are driven by 40 somethings who never put the gas more than halfway down and who religiously maintain their cars. Poor american econo boxes just get the shit kicked out of them because they are driven by people who don't give a shit, never change fluids, and drive like the gas pedal is an on/ off switch. I think your roommates escort shows that point perfectly. With the proper care and lack of abuse any car can live for nearly 300k (for the most part).

American engineering may not be the most advanced, but, it is time tested and fairly rugged. Hell, that 7 year old burnout/ nitrous fed motor Spence reffered to was rebuilt with a ball hone on the cylinders, scraped the pistons clean by hand, and the crank was polished by hand with a scuff pad. It saw 7 years worth of tire exploding summernationals burnouts, countless nights of getting pounded on by a kid with his first hot rod, drove to florida twice (the first time with 4.10's and no overdrive), made a bunch of passes down the track, and barely used a quart of oil every 4,500 miles. Let's see an import motor do that without precision machining and a pro rebuild. Hell, that motor still went pretty good when it came out, it just had this odd habit of splitting apart harmonic balancers every 1,000 miles or so......

[Feral]

Look guys I'm not talking about the good ol days of American cars ... and even for the most part I'm not talking about even their engineers ... I'm talking about the people running the companies. You go back 30 years and you had people running the companies who actually cared about their customers ... who actually cared about the quality of the end product. Over the last few decades however, and most pointedly in the last 15 years, the companies have shifted into just profit-mongering mega-corporations that are utterly ambivalent towards their customers and only care about the bottomline and are now no better than Walmart or Microsoft. My point is that I don't want to give my money to such a company when there are other ... customer-oriented companies out there who do give a shit about me ... who do deliver quality products to me.

That said there are some phenominal import motors out there that have been built stronger than almost anything that was made for mass production in this country. You've all heard stories about those 1000HP Supras running on a bone stock 3.0L 2JZ longblock or the 1000HP skylines running on a bone stock 2.6L RB26DETT ... same goes for a lot of those over-engineered jap trannies (well actually they have a tendency to be getrags ... so german engineering I suppose). Regardless you don't make and hold that much horsepower on a stock block that has had corners cut in its design. It's not that the american companies are incapable of this kind of engineering ... its not that they are too stupid to do it ... its just that they don't do it. Its just that they decide to only make a powerplant that is "good enough" whereas the japanese companies make engines that are "as good as we can". It's a subtle difference but it goes a long ways in the end ... and sadly it was exactly that kind of attitude the american companies used to have its just somewhere along the line they changed their tune in the name of profit. Well fuck their profit ... I want quality ... and I don't understand why anyone else wouldn't ...

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Look guys I'm not talking about the good ol days of American cars ... and even for the most part I'm not talking about even their engineers ... I'm talking about the people running the companies. You go back 30 years and you had people running the companies who actually cared about their customers ... who actually cared about the quality of the end product. Over the last few decades however, and most pointedly in the last 15 years, the companies have shifted into just profit-mongering mega-corporations that are utterly ambivalent towards their customers and only care about the bottomline and are now no better than Walmart or Microsoft. My point is that I don't want to give my money to such a company when there are other ... customer-oriented companies out there who do give a shit about me ... who do deliver quality products to me.

That said there are some phenominal import motors out there that have been built stronger than almost anything that was made for mass production in this country. You've all heard stories about those 1000HP Supras running on a bone stock 3.0L 2JZ longblock or the 1000HP skylines running on a bone stock 2.6L RB26DETT ... same goes for a lot of those over-engineered jap trannies (well actually they have a tendency to be getrags ... so german engineering I suppose). Regardless you don't make and hold that much horsepower on a stock block that has had corners cut in its design. It's not that the american companies are incapable of this kind of engineering ... its not that they are too stupid to do it ... its just that they don't do it. Its just that they decide to only make a powerplant that is "good enough" whereas the japanese companies make engines that are "as good as we can". It's a subtle difference but it goes a long ways in the end ... and sadly it was exactly that kind of attitude the american companies used to have its just somewhere along the line they changed their tune in the name of profit. Well fuck their profit ... I want quality ... and I don't understand why anyone else wouldn't ...

2000hp big blocks on stock blocks....NEXT

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
2000hp big blocks on stock blocks....NEXT

Again you ignore my point that the companies that make those products are interested in only profit and couldn't give a shit about you, the consumer.

And which big blocks are those? What production cars did they come in? Stock longblock? Stock crank, rods, pistons, heads??? I call bullshit ... prove it.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Again you ignore my point that the companies that make those products are interested in only profit and couldn't give a shit about you, the consumer.

And which big blocks are those? What production cars did they come in? Stock longblock? Stock crank, rods, pistons, heads??? I call bullshit ... prove it.

you said blocks, gm BLOCKS are known good to 2000 no problem, this would be from 1965 until um present. and a late 60's 427 short block is good for 1300hp as proved by ATI

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Look guys I'm not talking about the good ol days of American cars ... and even for the most part I'm not talking about even their engineers ... I'm talking about the people running the companies. You go back 30 years and you had people running the companies who actually cared about their customers ... who actually cared about the quality of the end product. Over the last few decades however, and most pointedly in the last 15 years, the companies have shifted into just profit-mongering mega-corporations that are utterly ambivalent towards their customers and only care about the bottomline and are now no better than Walmart or Microsoft. My point is that I don't want to give my money to such a company when there are other ... customer-oriented companies out there who do give a shit about me ... who do deliver quality products to me.

That said there are some phenominal import motors out there that have been built stronger than almost anything that was made for mass production in this country. You've all heard stories about those 1000HP Supras running on a bone stock 3.0L 2JZ longblock or the 1000HP skylines running on a bone stock 2.6L RB26DETT ... same goes for a lot of those over-engineered jap trannies (well actually they have a tendency to be getrags ... so german engineering I suppose). Regardless you don't make and hold that much horsepower on a stock block that has had corners cut in its design. It's not that the american companies are incapable of this kind of engineering ... its not that they are too stupid to do it ... its just that they don't do it. Its just that they decide to only make a powerplant that is "good enough" whereas the japanese companies make engines that are "as good as we can". It's a subtle difference but it goes a long ways in the end ... and sadly it was exactly that kind of attitude the american companies used to have its just somewhere along the line they changed their tune in the name of profit. Well fuck their profit ... I want quality ... and I don't understand why anyone else wouldn't ...

Bob Lutz has changed this ideal with GM. He has sent back many cars for redesign. The ecotec is used in the cavy and sunfire drag cars. Right around 1000hp on a stock block, and its a 4 banger. Things are changing, but only recently. Northstar can handle 750hp on stock internals.

Ford has built rather stout engines, they just don't appear on this side of the pond. Cosworth is a good example (yeah yeah, its a partnership, whatever). The Ford 5.0 was capable of handling a decent amount of power on a stock block with stock internals. The Ford lightning engine can handle a decent amount of power on stock internals. Cobra is the same way. I would state chrysler, but they used mitsu engines, so it doesnt really count. But, the viper engine seems to be able to handle a decent amount of extra power. All of the Big3's diesel engines (trucks) can handle a shitload of power. For the most part, most of the Big3's "standard" engines are dogshit. They can handle a moderate amount of power stock, but nothing silly because there is no point. Whats the point of making the 3.8L V6 handle 1000hp if it only comes in sedans?

They have their mix of engines, just as the imports do. As spencer said, GM has their aftermarket motors which can handle stupid power. THey actually put design effort into this, because, GM has always been about the aftermarket since, oh, forever. Just, in the 60's, they put those aftermarket parts as purchase options on cars. realistically, the options cost the same as if you were to buy a maro now and throw a BB in it. its all a matter of perspective, and in this case, it is just slightly different.

Either way, as you stated, most of the car companies use getrag trannies. I don't believe any car company owns them... GM uses Delphi, Ford uses Visteon... I read an article recently that was talking about how the Big3 were outsourcing a lot of their design work overseas. Pretty common nowadays. And, not only that, but a lot of their child companies (smaller car companies) use Ford and GM engines and make a LOT more power with them. Must be nice to not have to worry about emissions in other countries. Holden for example makes a monaro with a 427 in it. Anyway, my $0.02.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
you said blocks, gm BLOCKS are known good to 2000 no problem, this would be from 1965 until um present. and a late 60's 427 short block is good for 1300hp as proved by ATI

Actually I said longblocks ... go reread my post ... although I doubt you read any of my posts.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
blah blah blah

Again the meat of my arguement is with the attitude behind the big 3 ... not so much their cars. I just don't understand people giving money to a company that doesn't give a shit about them just because their daddy said "them sure is good cars son" ...

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Regardless you don't make and hold that much horsepower on a stock block that has had corners cut in its design. It's not that the american companies are incapable of this kind of engineering ... its not that they are too stupid to do it ... its just that they don't do it. Its just that they decide to only make a powerplant that is "good enough" whereas the japanese companies make engines that are "as good as we can". It's a subtle difference but it goes a long ways in the end ... and sadly it was exactly that kind of attitude the american companies used to have its just somewhere along the line they changed their tune in the name of profit. Well fuck their profit ... I want quality ... and I don't understand why anyone else wouldn't ...

corners better be cut, if they are not that leaves stress points.

again, you are comparing apples to kumquats, how sturdy is a japanese 8 cylinder v configuration motor?

seeing how your not talking the good ole days, ecotec owns all right now.

in the issue of business, GM is a great success, if you have a problem with capitalism then maybe you should refuse to buy any product sold in the US becasue any business in the US is created under capitalism (except for non-profit organizations and the government).

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
Again the meat of my arguement is with the attitude behind the big 3 ... not so much their cars. I just don't understand people giving money to a company that doesn't give a shit about them just because their daddy said "them sure is good cars son" ...

how many times has your car left you stranded in need of a tow truck, how many times has mine?

what happens when a toyota truck loses all its coolant? the motor over heats and siezes. What happens when my silverado loses all its coolant? the motor switches to 4 cylinder firing and relies on flawless air cooling to get you to the nearest repair facility. How many japanese companies offer remote diagnostic services? how many japanese company's car's automatically alert rescue personel in the event of an airbag deployment? what happens when a toyota dealer reuses to fix something, toyota corporate sides with the dealer, if a GM dealer refuses to fix something, GM corporate will either issue a repair order to the dealership or give you an extended warranty, regardless of what little you know about GM, it takes care of its customers very far down the road. They even notify ANY owner of a GM product if there is a recall or TSB whether its the 1st 2nd or 17th owner..Seems like they are not trying to screw the customer.

[Blackwidow]

Does anyone understand Curtis' point????

i find the arguments to be heavily weighted on bullshit material consisting of 500 words where only 20 have any legitimate worth

AMERICAN CAR COMPANIES GO FOR PROFIT
FOREIGN CAR COMPANIES GO FOR QUALITY AND CONSUMER .. ie price .. reliability .. warranty .. and piece of mind .. christ i sound like a fucking Toyota commercial

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Lil RedCorvette
Does anyone understand Curtis' point????

i find the arguments to be heavily weighted on bullshit material consisting of 500 words where only 20 have any legitimate worth

AMERICAN CAR COMPANIES GO FOR PROFIT
FOREIGN CAR COMPANIES GO FOR QUALITY AND CONSUMER .. ie price .. reliability .. warranty .. and piece of mind .. christ i sound like a fucking Toyota commercial
Actually, Toyota has started designing more for profit as of late. There have been a few articles lately speaking about their cost cutting measures leading to a shitty ass product, that breaks down constantly and needs recalls... not that the Big3 are any better, but they don't try and hide it.

The point is, for the past 2 decades, kurtis is right. The Big3 have been more about profit then the type/quality of their cars. That is changing now. GM is the forerunner in this, especially when Bob Lutz came in. he put the smack down and is fixing what prior execs fucked up. But, all in all, you have to look at some other things though. How many weird 3 year run cars came out from GM that were meant for the enthusiast. Grand national, Typhoon, syclone, Impala, 454SS, WS6, just to name a few. They do realize what some of their customers want and do put out those products. Doesnt mean they stick to them, but they do have them out there.

I don't deny that GM overall doesnt pay enough attention to detail with their cars. Chrysler just makes shitty cars overall. Ford, well... a little better then chrysler.

But, all in all, as was stated, its bullshit to say that the imports create cars purely for the care of the customer. They do what they do, because the people who DON'T suck the uncle sam cock require those things. They do it to make money. Don't try and kid yourself out of that.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
how many times has your car left you stranded in need of a tow truck, how many times has mine?

what happens when a toyota truck loses all its coolant? the motor over heats and siezes. What happens when my silverado loses all its coolant? the motor switches to 4 cylinder firing and relies on flawless air cooling to get you to the nearest repair facility. How many japanese companies offer remote diagnostic services? how many japanese company's car's automatically alert rescue personel in the event of an airbag deployment? what happens when a toyota dealer reuses to fix something, toyota corporate sides with the dealer, if a GM dealer refuses to fix something, GM corporate will either issue a repair order to the dealership or give you an extended warranty, regardless of what little you know about GM, it takes care of its customers very far down the road. They even notify ANY owner of a GM product if there is a recall or TSB whether its the 1st 2nd or 17th owner..Seems like they are not trying to screw the customer.


Oh yes ... you do find some incredible engineering in trucks these days and GM trucks are hands down the winner ... I have always kind of wondered if the cars and trucks divisions at GM were two totally seperate groups of not only engineers but business people. Its not the engineers that screw things up ... engineers love to build things and don't care about money ... it is the business people. However I don't know how happy I am with my car being able to call anyone without my permission. Sure it seems nice but its only one step away from my car calling the cops to tell them I'm speeding. Regardless that's a personal aversion ... has nothing to do with the big 3.

As for recalls ... well I'm the 4th owner of my VR4 and when I split my transfercase in half at the track (due to a flaw in the seals which let all the fluid run out) I towed the car to mitsubishi and they honored my recall right there ... gave me a brand new $2500 part for free. I had the notice sitting at home but didn't have it with me and it didn't matter. Now mitsubishi has hands down some of the worst customer service and is worse than the big 3 when it comes to quality and care of their customers ... they are never going to get my money again ... but all companies that reside on american soil have to distribute and honor recalls in the same fashion ... it's law in this country.

And I have nothing against capitalism ... I guess you just don't understand it. Capitalism isn't about $$$ ... its about the consumer. It's about giving the consumer the most bang for their $$ ... the best product for their $$ so they will come back for more. Well you simply get more for your $$ with the japanese companies.

In any case indeed ... Toyota has fallen victim to their own inertia. They grew too big for their own good and their problem now is their cars all suck. The average age of a toyota owner is something insane like 41. They just don't have cars that appeal to the young crowd anymore. And indeed ... they are falling victim to exactly what they used to profess against ... I guess the shitty economy had everyone running for cover. It will be interesting to see how Honda handles their massive success over the last 10-15 years. Honda is poised to take over the #4 spot from Toyota and with their average owner age solidly in the mid 20's they will have loyalists for generations to come ... still I wonder if a civic in 20 years from now will be as stout of a car as the civic of today.

Yet now that I think about it ... I understand why you guys don't get my point ... Spencer is into big giant trucks and Jay is into giant cars. Well Japanese companies don't make those kinds of vehicles ... so obviously they have nothing to offer you regardless of how good their other vehicles may be. Spencer can't walk down the road and buy the Honda 35,000 Super-mega-duty truck and Jay can't go buy the Nissan 7,000lb tank car II. I will admit I love American sports and muscle cars of all generations so I can't hold it against you guys for enjoying them as well.

No my gripe is primarily in the commuter and family car segment ... a segment you guys don't give a shit about ... and a segment that has been consistenly and firmly dominated by these japanese companies (and more recently by some of the lower-end VW's which are also phenominally engineered). So I guess what I'm saying is now I realize the futility in this argument. You guys obviously don't mind driving cars that break down every 60-90,000 miles (and obviously neither do I ... I drive a fucking saturn). Guess they makes us all equal.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Oh yes ... you do find some incredible engineering in trucks these days and GM trucks are hands down the winner ... I have always kind of wondered if the cars and trucks divisions at GM were two totally seperate groups of not only engineers but business people. Its not the engineers that screw things up ... engineers love to build things and don't care about money ... it is the business people. However I don't know how happy I am with my car being able to call anyone without my permission. Sure it seems nice but its only one step away from my car calling the cops to tell them I'm speeding. Regardless that's a personal aversion ... has nothing to do with the big 3.

As for recalls ... well I'm the 4th owner of my VR4 and when I split my transfercase in half at the track (due to a flaw in the seals which let all the fluid run out) I towed the car to mitsubishi and they honored my recall right there ... gave me a brand new $2500 part for free. I had the notice sitting at home but didn't have it with me and it didn't matter. Now mitsubishi has hands down some of the worst customer service and is worse than the big 3 when it comes to quality and care of their customers ... they are never going to get my money again ... but all companies that reside on american soil have to distribute and honor recalls in the same fashion ... it's law in this country.

And I have nothing against capitalism ... I guess you just don't understand it. Capitalism isn't about $$$ ... its about the consumer. It's about giving the consumer the most bang for their $$ ... the best product for their $$ so they will come back for more. Well you simply get more for your $$ with the japanese companies.

Honda is poised to take over the #4 spot from Toyota and with their average owner age solidly in the mid 20's they will have loyalists for generations to come ... still I wonder if a civic in 20 years from now will be as stout of a car as the civic of today.


Actually, Honda doesn't have a great return customer base. Most people grow up and buy BMW's and such. How many 40 year old men do you see driving civics?



Yet now that I think about it ... I understand why you guys don't get my point ... Spencer is into big giant trucks and Jay is into giant cars. Well Japanese companies don't make those kinds of vehicles ... so obviously they have nothing to offer you regardless of how good their other vehicles may be. Spencer can't walk down the road and buy the Honda 35,000 Super-mega-duty truck and Jay can't go buy the Nissan 7,000lb tank car II. I will admit I love American sports and muscle cars of all generations so I can't hold it against you guys for enjoying them as well.

No my gripe is primarily in the commuter and family car segment ... a segment you guys don't give a shit about ... and a segment that has been consistenly and firmly dominated by these japanese companies (and more recently by some of the lower-end VW's which are also phenominally engineered). So I guess what I'm saying is now I realize the futility in this argument. You guys obviously don't mind driving cars that break down every 60-90,000 miles (and obviously neither do I ... I drive a fucking saturn). Guess they makes us all equal.

Yeah, right. Toyota/Lexus doesnt make any big cars right? They make at least 3 of equiv size to my car. Nissan/Infiniti is the same. Mitsu has the diamante as well. The Honda Accord keeps getting bigger as the years go by. Tell me they aren't starting to make tanks. Even the econobox companies are making larger cars, such as Kia and Hyundai.

I think you just have some odd bias against the domestics by some misconception. In terms of normal cars, almost every company makes their cars to last well over the 200K mark. The only reason most of these cars break is because of user error or abuse. Not changing the oil on a regular basis (common) and no maintenance to speak of. You disproved your own point by mentioning the escort with 270K miles on it. 270K isnt too shabby for a motor to live. It is VERY rare to see cars with that high of milage still on the road, regardless of their make.

There is another problem too. Vehicle breakage reports are a little biased. See, if you buy a $8K car brand new, you expect it to rattle and make noises. most people who buy these cars DON'T take them in to be serviced (which is how they rank the cars), so it gives some odd leverage towards the cheaper cars. A person who drives a BMW or a Caddy will probably go into the dealer when ANYTHING seems wrong. A person with a $15K brand new honda probably won't. They will probably wait for the car to refuse to drive before they go in. Is the ranking fair? No, not really.

So, more or less, I don't know where you are getting these ideas about the quality of cars. You can't really use your VR4 as an example of japanese endurance. Every other time you have beaten your car, it has broken at the track. Can't say the same about a lot of other cars, domestic and import. If you beat something, it will break. I don't care if it is domestic or import. How many DSM's do you see popping at the track. I know I have seen QUITE a few. Either way, its all a matter or perspective, and I don't think your perspective is as accurate as you think it is.

Tis all from me.

[NickPSI]

Originally posted by H3llphyre


I think you just have some odd bias against the domestics by
There is another problem too. Vehicle breakage reports are a little biased. See, if you buy a $8K car brand new, you expect it to rattle and make noises. most people who buy these cars DON'T take them in to be serviced (which is how they rank the cars), so it gives some odd leverage towards the cheaper cars. A person who drives a BMW or a Caddy will probably go into the dealer when ANYTHING seems wrong. A person with a $15K brand new honda probably won't. They will probably wait for the car to refuse to drive before they go in. Is the ranking fair? No, not really.


This is a good point. Also, people who buy cars that cost less than 15k will 80% of the time be able to fix their own car. People who buy expensive cars are afraid to get their hands dirty and go to the dealership.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by NickPSI
This is a good point. Also, people who buy cars that cost less than 15k will 80% of the time be able to fix their own car. People who buy expensive cars are afraid to get their hands dirty and go to the dealership.

Probably not. people how buy new cars don't bother trying to fix them, cuz most likely they don't know how to. That's left for people who buy USED cars. But, I do agree with you for the most part.

[540Malibu]

exactly, i've already had my silverado into service for MINOR problems, belt tensioner made some noise once in a while when cold (all cars do this) i made them replace it, also brought it in to have the steering hose changed because i could see dirt building up around a small seep of oil.

as for VW building a quality car in the low end models, this is not true, i dislocated the shift linkage on an 01 jetta while racing it, and i could consistently do so, not to mention the transmissions go in those as well as audi's.

would i really buy a new passenger car from anyone right now? no probably not, BUT if i had to choose from any car currently offered it would be The Impala SS Very nice looking, plenty of room comfortable interior, not made of cheap plastic shit, and they have relatively few problems other than luck of the draw with transmissions.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Actually, Honda doesn't have a great return customer base. Most people grow up and buy BMW's and such. How many 40 year old men do you see driving civics?

That is true ... hell Bren is living proof of this he's like 19 and already upgrading from his honda. You do see a lot of older people driving Acuras though ... I guess that's Honda's grown up car.


Yeah, right. Toyota/Lexus doesnt make any big cars right? They make at least 3 of equiv size to my car. Nissan/Infiniti is the same. Mitsu has the diamante as well. The Honda Accord keeps getting bigger as the years go by. Tell me they aren't starting to make tanks. Even the econobox companies are making larger cars, such as Kia and Hyundai.

There is no major production vehicle that I know of made anywhere that is as big as a caddy. Seriously ... that is an all-american tank car. Granted 95% of people you see driving caddies are either fat as hell or old as hell ... but still ... there is nothing to compare to an Escalade, Suburban, or Excursion either ... americans just like their mega-humungo cars and their bling bling to make up for lacking any worthwhile personality features.


I think you just have some odd bias against the domestics by some misconception. In terms of normal cars, almost every company makes their cars to last well over the 200K mark. The only reason most of these cars break is because of user error or abuse. Not changing the oil on a regular basis (common) and no maintenance to speak of. You disproved your own point by mentioning the escort with 270K miles on it. 270K isnt too shabby for a motor to live. It is VERY rare to see cars with that high of milage still on the road, regardless of their make.

Well we got rid of our toyota pickup when it had 390,000 miles on the original tranny and engine because the body rusted away (as spencer pointed out this was a common problem with the 80's pickups). That thing was lucky to get an oil change every 20,000 miles when I was in college and I usually drove it 100mph down the highway on its little 4 speed. Other cars I've owned included a buick regal, a K car, an S10, and a taurus. Every single one died before making 100,000 miles and I fucking maintained those cars all the time.

Here's some facts for you ... notice the Import's dominance:

Lowest total cost of ownership
http://www.intellichoice.com/top10/OwnershipCosts.cfm

Lowest Maintenance costs
http://www.intellichoice.com/Top10/LowestMaintenance.cfm


There is another problem too. Vehicle breakage reports are a little biased. See, if you buy a $8K car brand new, you expect it to rattle and make noises. most people who buy these cars DON'T take them in to be serviced (which is how they rank the cars), so it gives some odd leverage towards the cheaper cars. A person who drives a BMW or a Caddy will probably go into the dealer when ANYTHING seems wrong. A person with a $15K brand new honda probably won't. They will probably wait for the car to refuse to drive before they go in. Is the ranking fair? No, not really.

Ok so where's the proof of your bullshit hypothesis? Regardless it doesn't matter ... my facts above cover a broad range of cars from lexury down to sub-compact ... in fact the majority of the cars on those lists cost more than $20k.



So, more or less, I don't know where you are getting these ideas about the quality of cars. You can't really use your VR4 as an example of japanese endurance. Every other time you have beaten your car, it has broken at the track. Can't say the same about a lot of other cars, domestic and import. If you beat something, it will break. I don't care if it is domestic or import. How many DSM's do you see popping at the track. I know I have seen QUITE a few. Either way, its all a matter or perspective, and I don't think your perspective is as accurate as you think it is.

Tis all from me.

My VR4 has come home from the track on a flatbed less than Jesse's has and I've put in about 20 times as many runs as he has ... what the fuck ... where's your super-duper american engineering now? Once because I split a transfercase which is a known defect on the cars (and it's getrags defect mind you ... fucking germans) and the other time because I killed my champion coppers (all american plugs ... thank you very fucking much). Other than that it has lasted longer at 650HP/650 ft-lbs with all stock internals than any all stock american production engine besides an '03 Cobra motor and a Viper motor. Yet your oldsmobile seems to pop trannies all day long. Sure Pete's car lasted 270,000 miles ... that's great my Saturn lasted 90,000 miles, my K-car 90,000 miles, my regal 65,000 miles, my S-10 85,000 miles, my taurus made 95,000 miles (almost 100k) and my toyota 390,000 miles ... whoop-tie-doo.

Yes I do have a bias against american cars because they suck ... I wouldn't be so biased against them if there was any good reason to buy one besides needing a vehicle that drinks gas faster than you drink beast lite when playing beruit ...

Ugly plastic interiors, cheaply engineered drivetrains, only "good enough" engineered powerplants, a company that couldn't give a shit about it's consumers, and shitty gas mileage. 30mpg is NOT good gas mileage ... fuck 50mpg isn't in my book ... but then again I am an engineer and I understand how horrendously inefficient the internal combustion engine is ...

All of the statistics back me up on this one too. Want some more??

Here's a feedback study from the consumers
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/winners.asp?StudyID=410&CatID=1
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=410&CatID=1

Here's an appeal study (which car they liked the best after driving)
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/winners.asp?StudyID=460&CatID=1
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=460&CatID=1


The consumers have spoken ... fuck american vehicles. The american companies don't give a shit and the consumers have started to take notice. The only reason why anyone still buys that american shit is because they still think this is WW2 and don't understand how a global economy works. Fuck american cars are being built in Canada and Mexico now ... how fucking american is that? My american Saturn was built in Korea ... yeah really fucking patriotic. Really fucking dumb is all it is ...

There's no good, logical reason to own an american car yet you insist there is ... I've laid my bid down ... several independant studies done across tens of thousands of vehicles came up amazing dominated by non-american companies (there were plenty of German entries in both studies ... just sparse few american ones). You need to stick to wife-beaters and raviolis ... your losing your edge as an engineer and are letting personal bias get in the way of logical conclusions based on known facts ...

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
exactly, i've already had my silverado into service for MINOR problems, belt tensioner made some noise once in a while when cold (all cars do this) i made them replace it, also brought it in to have the steering hose changed because i could see dirt building up around a small seep of oil.

as for VW building a quality car in the low end models, this is not true, i dislocated the shift linkage on an 01 jetta while racing it, and i could consistently do so, not to mention the transmissions go in those as well as audi's.

would i really buy a new passenger car from anyone right now? no probably not, BUT if i had to choose from any car currently offered it would be The Impala SS Very nice looking, plenty of room comfortable interior, not made of cheap plastic shit, and they have relatively few problems other than luck of the draw with transmissions.

You mean for the price of that impalaSS you wouldn't get an Acura TL 3.2 or a Maxima GXE? Both kick it's ass in every way for almost the same price ... fuck they run low 14 second 1/4's ... faster than LT1 F-bodies ... and are more comfortable and reliable than your ImpalaSS. Why in the hell choose the Impala??

[Feral]

This is awesome ... I haven't gone this apeshit since when I used to argue with Brad ... fucking right. Still I forsee you guys giving in and using Brad's backdoor "Taste can't be argued"

Off to new years.

[TunedPort 335]

This is my conclusion of this thread-

Kurtis likes imports.

Spence likes domestics.

:blush:

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
There is no major production vehicle that I know of made anywhere that is as big as a caddy. Seriously ... that is an all-american tank car. Granted 95% of people you see driving caddies are either fat as hell or old as hell ... but still ... there is nothing to compare to an Escalade, Suburban, or Excursion either ... americans just like their mega-humungo cars and their bling bling to make up for lacking any worthwhile personality features.


Caddy Deville 3987lbs 17/24mpg
Lexus LS 430 3990lbs 18/25mpg
Infiniti Q45 3977lbs 17/23mpg

Now tell me the imports don't build cars as big as a caddy... You aren't the only one who "knows" stuff... haha. All three cars come with more or less similiar engines in the mid 4L and all V8's. Same gas milage more or less as well. Wanna state that they don't make em as big as caddies again?


Yet your oldsmobile seems to pop trannies all day long. Sure Pete's car lasted 270,000 miles ... that's great my Saturn lasted 90,000 miles, my K-car 90,000 miles, my regal 65,000 miles, my S-10 85,000 miles, my taurus made 95,000 miles (almost 100k) and my toyota 390,000 miles ... whoop-tie-doo.

Actually the only thing that has happened to the Olds is a faulty head gasket, which can happen in any car. I was on the highway when it popped and blew the motor. It happens to ALL cars. I've seen that happen in new imports as well as domestics. The tranny is the original tranny at 118K miles and I have beaten the ever living shit out of it since 50K miles. Still has yet to pop. I haven't had a single thing happen to that car that isn't normal maintenance other then the head gasket. Just brakes, suspension, etc. Try and tell me it is unreliable. My old 1992 Olds was at 180K on the original tranny, no problems with the tranny at all. It didn't get a constant flogging from me though. Only 15K worth.


Yes I do have a bias against american cars because they suck ... I wouldn't be so biased against them if there was any good reason to buy one besides needing a vehicle that drinks gas faster than you drink beast lite when playing beruit ...


Congrats... You super duper Honda Civic base model gets 1mpg more on the hwy then a cavvy... Wow, so fucking impressive. Again, your bias is clouding your eyes there. Stop thinking we are in the 80's and every Big3 car weighs 3 tons.


Ugly plastic interiors, cheaply engineered drivetrains, only "good enough" engineered powerplants, a company that couldn't give a shit about it's consumers, and shitty gas mileage. 30mpg is NOT good gas mileage ... fuck 50mpg isn't in my book ... but then again I am an engineer and I understand how horrendously inefficient the internal combustion engine is ...


Cheap engineered drivetrains eh? You know that the T-56 was designed for GM right? Seems to live behind the vette and teh viper okay. Also seems to live behind the 900hp LPE vette and the Hennesy viper as well. Not to mention the countless slushboxes that live behind GN's and SyTy's. As you said, the xfer case in your VR4 is a KNOWN problem in those cars. So, Mitsu has shitty drivetrains too eh? If GM is so bad, why is Honda buying diesel engines from them for their cars? Why is BMW buying trannies from them? Yeah, GM has made some design mistakes. So has every company. I haven't worked for a company yet who hasn't had to deal with stupid bugs that pop up in release products. You trying to tell me it doesnt happen at your work? The fact is, I *AM* an engineer. I try not to live behind a bias cloud. I don't deny that imports are very good cars. I am just trying to show how domestics (minus chrysler) are really not that far off... Its just a bad stigma from the 80's.

The consumers have spoken ... fuck american vehicles. The american companies don't give a shit and the consumers have started to take notice. The only reason why anyone still buys that american shit is because they still think this is WW2 and don't understand how a global economy works. Fuck american cars are being built in Canada and Mexico now ... how fucking american is that? My american Saturn was built in Korea ... yeah really fucking patriotic. Really fucking dumb is all it is ...

There's no good, logical reason to own an american car yet you insist there is ... I've laid my bid down ... several independant studies done across tens of thousands of vehicles came up amazing dominated by non-american companies (there were plenty of German entries in both studies ... just sparse few american ones). You need to stick to wife-beaters and raviolis ... your losing your edge as an engineer and are letting personal bias get in the way of logical conclusions based on known facts ...

Yeah, well, how about some NEW data, not data from almost 4 years ago...

http://email.gmcanada.com/corpdb/cachq/pressrel.nsf/0/bd7b8ddc43d86ea485256d1e005eab50?OpenDocument

Oh look. Looks like the bread and butter GM mid sized sedans finished SECOND in their classes... That means there were plenty of imports that finish below them. Second place isn't too shabby.

Want some more?

http://www.jdpa.com/businessservices/automotive/publications/powerreport/200306/0603_IQSSegp.htm

Here is a little snippet....

Entry Midsize Car
The Chevrolet Malibu tops the segment for the second consecutive year, followed closely by the Hyundai Sonata and the Pontiac Grand Am, which repeats its third-place ranking.

mium Midsize Car
Domestic brands sweep the top three places with the Mercury Sable (the second most-improved model for 2003) leading, followed by the Chevrolet Impala, and the Buick Regal and Chevrolet Monte Carlo in a tie.

Full-Size Car
The Ford Crown Victoria leads another domestic-dominated segment, followed by the Buick LeSabre and the Pontiac Bonneville.

Entry Luxury Car
The Lexus ES 300 claims the lead of the entry luxury segment for the second year in a row. The Cadillac CTS places second, followed by the Acura TL.

Sporty Car
Mazda Miata retained its leadership for the second straight year, despite a slip in quality, followed by the Chrysler Sebring Coupe and Dodge Stratus Coupe.


Where are your beloved imports in these classes? True in other classes (subcompact) there were no domestics, cuz they DON'T make that class... Well, not true. Chevy now has the Aveo. Get with the times. Your data is 3 years old. This is the newest JD Powers data.

So, you still wanna argue that the imports are killing the domestics in EVERY corner? The domestics are priced the same, finish at the top of the pack with a lot of nice imports.

Again, I am not saying that imports suck. I love many of them. Just, get with the times. Just because it is domestic, doesn't mean it sucks. But, the best part out of all of this is... Not only is GM matching the imports for quality now, but they make a shitload more from their cars because they have more efficient plants. Hows that for Japanese efficiency? So, they make the same quality cars for a higher profit margin. How is this a bad thing? Engineering goes way beyond designing a car to drive. Designing to repair, designing for manufacturing, designing for cost. These are all import in the engineering process, but you should know this, cuz you are an engineer.

If you wanna argue some more, bring it. I would like you to try and find some more info other then "The consumer liked this car better after test driving it". So fucking what? I am sure I would like a Mercedes better then an Impala, doesnt mean I am going to buy it. Opinion means nothing, the almighty dollar does.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by TunedPort 335
This is my conclusion of this thread-

Kurtis likes imports.

Spence likes domestics.

:blush:

Thanks for leaving me out :(

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
You mean for the price of that impalaSS you wouldn't get an Acura TL 3.2 or a Maxima GXE? Both kick it's ass in every way for almost the same price ... fuck they run low 14 second 1/4's ... faster than LT1 F-bodies ... and are more comfortable and reliable than your ImpalaSS. Why in the hell choose the Impala??

they are not more comfortable or reliable, i know this for a fact because i fix 17 acura seats a week, the 9c1 police package (i think its still designated as 9c1) comes with NASTY sway bars and if i was looking for performance i'd get the impala anyways cuz for 30 bucks i can have it running low 13's.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
they are not more comfortable or reliable, i know this for a fact because i fix 17 acura seats a week, the 9c1 police package (i think its still designated as 9c1) comes with NASTY sway bars and if i was looking for performance i'd get the impala anyways cuz for 30 bucks i can have it running low 13's.

On a perfect day with the perfect driver, a GTP will run 13.99. So, it is possible to run 13's bone stock.

[Feral]

I need to stop pissing in my own cheerios.

Different day ... different person ... this is who I am though.

Yeah domestics don't suck. I got blinded by my own zeal and I went overboard. The import engineering (and by this I think I have to strictly limit it to Honda and Toyota ... toyota being the real breadwinner here) has been consistently better over the last 10-15 years ... however the domestic companies have changed many of their ways and as you pointed out ... have significantly improved and even overcome the lead that these imports used to maintain. There are plenty of excellent products being made by american companies today ... which is good because we as the consumer win when there are multiple quality choices.

I am not some import fanboy ... I mean I drive a mitsubishi which is hands down one of the worst Japanese companies. Other than the 4g63, the 6g72, and their production turbos (mitsu is the biggest manufacturer of turbos in the world ... and they last a good 120,000-150,000 miles ... pretty awesome for a turbo) ... I could not possibly recommend a Mitsubishi product to anyone. They make shitty cars and have shitty customer service. I love my car but I would have never bought it new and won't recommend anyone get a VR4/Stealth before I tell them a few things they need to know.

As I said ... I let my own Zeal get in the way of my own reasonable and logic judgement. I'm positive my comments make me look like an import fanboy but the irony here is my next car will be a domestic and I more often than not recommend domestics to people. For instance the C5 vette is not only the best american sports car built in a while ... but it is currently the best sports car someone can buy (hell it might be the only sports car under $50k). I loved and respecgted the LS1 F-bodies (despite the abhorrent styling on the Camaros) ... I do like the latest Mustang body (despite it being made for girls) and I honestly think american trucks are awesome (this is probably just because until Nissan there really was no full-size competition). I love Jeeps and will own one some day and I honestly like my little saturn as a commuter car. Sure it's a piece of shit but it's a cheap piece of shit and that's what matters.

I've found domestic interiors to be a serious letdown but even that is changing somewhat. They are playing catchup and that's what's important. Obvious 3 huge companies have the resources to change if the market demands it and the market is demanding it so they are changing.

And of course then there is Bob Lutz ... who's a very awesome influence on the GM of today. But ford's SVT team and Dodge's SRT team are also awesome as well all on their own. I mean we have the Lightning, Cobra, Viper, Dodge SRT truck, and the fucking sick-assed neon now all being sold in this country thanks to those teams ... gotta love that kind of shit. You don't see Toyota or honda or any Japanese company making products anywhere near as fun or as bang-for-your buck as those things. The Rx8 is an atrocity and the 350Z is more gay than A-men. No ... america does many things right and I know this.

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
they are not more comfortable or reliable, i know this for a fact because i fix 17 acura seats a week, the 9c1 police package (i think its still designated as 9c1) comes with NASTY sway bars and if i was looking for performance i'd get the impala anyways cuz for 30 bucks i can have it running low 13's. What $30 would that be?

[NickPSI]

Originally posted by Feral
What $30 would that be?

$30 for a slimjim, to steal a modded one and swap parts.

[bren]

Originally posted by Feral
That is true ... hell Bren is living proof of this he's like 19 and already upgrading from his honda. You do see a lot of older people driving Acuras though ... I guess that's Honda's grown up car.

18 years old. Ive had two hondas and loved every single minute. a 00 si brand new, and 90 dx neglected to shit 100k with 0 maintence. My 90 ran better then the 00 and caused me no problems and i beat the piss out of it. Its hard for me to step back into the Si shoes, even when im offered mint 2000 t3/t4 hondata tuned Si's for 12k from friends. That car was perfect for high school racer/daily driver/gettin high school pussy......but would i go back in college, nope. After driving more sophisticated m3's and g35's i can respect a better built car. My priorities are different then the fastest honda in worcester, a cool paint job and a sporty ride. Now i like my Mitsu because it rides so smooth (unlike Si) has plenty of daily driving torque (unlike Si), is extremely comfortable (unlike Si) and its bone stock reliable. My priorities changed so fast from 17 to 18, God by 20 i might be in a 4 door accord who knows. Point is, entry level means entry level consumer meaning 40 yr old business men dont go to honda to get the sporty rsx-s or civic si with their business salaries. Entry level cars are usually targeted to people high teens to mid 20's. As the 3G eclipse/IS300/Mini cooper were targeted more towards low 20 to mid 20 aged males as a more mature sporty look with less boy racer aftermarket and look to it. Obviously 16 years old rarely have 25-30 to spend on a GT, Cooper S, or IS300......thats why they have mirages, civics, and focus's, neon's as entry level.

My family has had a mix of hondas/fords and the obvious answer is that honda was the better car all around although domestic guys are somewhat getting their acts together now. Im way too tired/high right now to sift through the domestic point making garbage (although some of the domestic points are correct, Feral always makes a more solid backed up with facts argument)

cliff notes: Im baised and you all know it

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by bren y0
Feral always makes a more solid backed up with facts argument


I only bring hard facts to the table when someone calls BS or points out something that is blatantly wrong.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
I only bring hard facts to the table when someone calls BS or points out something that is blatantly wrong. I had a hard fact but my girlfriend took care of that for me ...

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
I had a hard fact but my girlfriend took care of that for me ...

Haha, dumbass. We need a new topic to argue about. Hurry up and come up with something.

[bren]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Haha, dumbass. We need a new topic to argue about. Hurry up and come up with something.

ive never had a hard fact, wheres the viagra.

[540Malibu]

Originally posted by Feral
What $30 would that be?

i can have a pulley machined for 30 bucks

[Feral]

Originally posted by 540Malibu
i can have a pulley machined for 30 bucks How about fuel system? Going from high 14's to low 13's on stock fuel system? What about the tranny ... those trannies blow (jay told me so himself).

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
How about fuel system? Going from high 14's to low 13's on stock fuel system? What about the tranny ... those trannies blow (jay told me so himself).

Reaching low 13's with the stock fuel system may be difficult. Hitting mid to high 13's is possible with the stock fuel system is completely possible. A stock GTP driven perfectly will hit 13.9. Its been done, but it is VERY rare. Another thing to realize... A GTP has the 4T60e-HD tranny. Heavy duty. Slightly better then the normal 4T60e tranny.

Either way, it requires the correct mods and a GOOD driver. A modified GTP is a burnout fairy for most people.

[Feral]

Originally posted by H3llphyre
Reaching low 13's with the stock fuel system may be difficult. Hitting mid to high 13's is possible with the stock fuel system is completely possible. A stock GTP driven perfectly will hit 13.9. Its been done, but it is VERY rare. Another thing to realize... A GTP has the 4T60e-HD tranny. Heavy duty. Slightly better then the normal 4T60e tranny.

Either way, it requires the correct mods and a GOOD driver. A modified GTP is a burnout fairy for most people.

Yeah but it pulls fine on the highway. Yeah I hadn't heard of the stock fuel system digging much into the 13's ... I dunno how much the impala weighs in comparison to the GTP ... probably a little more but not much ... mostly due to the more plush stuff inside.

[H3llphyre]

Originally posted by Feral
Yeah but it pulls fine on the highway. Yeah I hadn't heard of the stock fuel system digging much into the 13's ... I dunno how much the impala weighs in comparison to the GTP ... probably a little more but not much ... mostly due to the more plush stuff inside.


I have yet to drive one on the highway, so I don't really know how well it pulls there. I would imagine pretty okay. The best I have heard off the stock fuel system is mid 13's. but, thats with more then JUST a pulley. A less restrictive CAI, headers, tuning, and a pulley is good for a mid 13 second blast. After that, you need to start thinking about putting in the LSD which costs about $800. This fixes the dreaded diff pin slippage which blows the tranny up. There are all sorts of small things you can do to a GTP to get it to get up and move. For about $1000, you can make it have 270fwhp rather reliably. Either way, 270hp to the wheels in a FWD car isn't going to yeild great 1/4 times, just because of the lack of traction. The ghetto way to fix that is to block the rear springs for track day. Lots of small tricks.

[86T/A-Demon]

my 84 Z/28 has 250K miles on it and still runs.

It has a 99,999.9 mile odometer in it
but i bought it with 98,000 and traded it with 180,000 and bought it back with 220,000